Hello all, I've decided to upgrade my shooting kit, and I'm undecided what camera I should go for......any thoughts? Dave
Hi Dave, What do you do and what do you need to do it? Choose a kit that best suites the type of work that you do with it. For instance, if you do a lot of travelling around then you'd need a kit that was easy to move and pack away, or if you intend to do a lot of studio shooting then you might choose a kit that had a lot of technical customization. I can think of a few cameras that might fit into a couple groups but if you specialize in shooting events, weddings, for example, then you are going down a specific path. Anyway, we want to help so please give us the details.
And you didn't mention C300, C100, FS700, Alpha 99, Scarlet or KineRaw. And what are you upgrading from? Why? This is just the sort of question we all love to chew on, so allow me to quote Dr Evil - 'throw us a friggin' bone'.
Good morning Matt & Tobias, Many thanks indeed for your responses. Currently I generally shoot low budget commercials, music promos, and quite a bit of corporate work, but I want to start shooting low/medium budget features in addition to my day job. I used to work for Granada, where I shot on DigiBeta, and BetaSP.( Currently I'm actually a film prop maker, but still really enjoy shooting). My last shooting kit was based around the 5D mk II, with Nikon primes, which I loved shooting on, but felt severely restricted by. I've looked at the F3, and love the form factor and more importantly the image, and the price!! The Blackmagic Cinema Camera in theory looks like a no brainer, but with the internal battery, form factor, and current production issues, I'm not sure it would fit the bill, at least until Blackmagic Design sort out the sensor issues. The C100 looks interesting, and the price is pretty keen, but how does the image hold up against the C300?. The C300 looks amazing, but in my opinion is over priced compared to the F3 with S-log. The AF101 is an amazing camera, and I know Philip invested in one last year, but the image doesn't look as good as the F3. To be honest the F3 with S-log, Atomos Samurai recorder (for 4:2:2), MTF Nikon adaptor, and Nikon primes looks like the best bet for me. Very best wishes Dave
Hot news: F5 will be about £13.5k http://www.hdwarrior.co.uk/2012/11/15/japan-release-the-pmw-f555-pricing-by-mistake/ Now, that may skew you - F5 is a brute of a camera which will last a long time, at around the same price as the F3 when introduced. But having said that, the F3 body isn't much more than a complete EX3 used to be. Toughie. A colleague has the F3 - very impressed with the S-Log to SxS even though it's an 8 bit thing, but like you he gets 10 bit to a Samurai if needs be. As he's also got EX1s and EX3, it was mainly a workflow choice, but none the worse for that. And he spent a lot of money on Nikkors. By a quirk of fate he's also got the Black Magic Camera (lucky chap) - this is a different kettle of fish. Personally, I don't think you could have a BMC as your 'only' camera, but it makes a great camera for Beauty shots, Chromakey and talking heads. As a toe-dip into raw, great. As a weekend indie film thing, great (if you work to its strengths). But it's not a camera for the cameraman on the clapham Omnibus (via White City, if you see what I mean). Never was that. The AF101 has been recently 'updated' to the AF101A, but it's not an exactly huge update. I can't say much about the AF101, despite originally lusting after it, as all the people I know who bought one, sold theirs. Still offers incredible value, the shooters who still have one love it. But going back to Philip's scoop above, FS700 with ASX-R5 4K recorder comes in at about the same price and you get 4K, 12 Bit Raw. F3, nice camera, but 4K 12 bit Raw. How does THAT compare to the Black Magic Camera? Okay, on an initial outlay, it's double the price, but in terms of usability I think it's worth it. But I'm not you. Now that the other shoe has dropped on the Sony F5 and F55, I think you're safe to invest in F3 if you like its ergonomics. C300 would have been the 'defacto' choice had you built up a collection of L-series glass, but both cameras are welcome on Pro shoots.
Hi Matt, Many thanks indeed for your reply. Ummm, F5 for £13.5k.......interesting!! I would imagine that all in the total cost of the F5, including all of the additional kit required to use it would be around the £18k mark, which would currently put it out of my price range. I did look at the Red One MX, but again the cost starts to add up when you factor in all of the additional kit required. (Red have a number of 'Battle tested' Red One's for sale at the moment at a very keen price). The BMC would be great as a 'B' camera, and with the addition of a full version of Davinci Resolve 9, it might be worth investing in at a later date. I like the image from the FS100, and the FS700, but I really don't like the form factor, which is a real shame. Well, it looks as if the F3 with the Samurai, MTF adaptor and S-Log would currently be my best bet. Having said that, I'm going to keep a close eye on the price of the F5 when it's released...... Very best wishes Dave
Hey, Dave... there are so many people in your position. Including me. The launch of the F5 puts the F3 into an interesting position. I think it's a nice position - not entry level, even if it's the least expensive of the F range. It it were a dog, it would now have a cute name like 'Benji' rather than a butch name like 'champ', but I really don't think that's going to harm its reputation. But before you sign the deal on the F3 (which I'm sure you should) please do give the FS700 a hug when it's on a rig. If only to know what you're missing out on. The form factor isn't to everyone's taste, it is a bit of a brick (but hey, you like F3s), but especially when you fondle the FS700 beside the FS100 and view the results on a decent monitor, you understand where the extra 2K went. Just the buttons should do you. But the CS100 has things like shot duration in the display (no, the FS camcorders don't do this!), they have dual slots. They have Intervalometers. They have clear scan shutters to make monitors and wayward lighting sources work. They can copy from one slot to another. Yannow, this is quite important if you get paid to shoot stuff. And, like you say, an FSx00 camcorder is a bit of a house-brick when it comes to point-and-shoot. Love them, love them to bits, but a C100 does do what both a DSLR and a shoulder mounted camera does - which is 'fit in'.
Hi Matt, Lol.....If I get an F3, I've got to call it 'Benji'!!! I'm going to pop to CVP to test drive the FS700 before I make my final decision. I think I need to find out a bit more before I discount it.... With the current crop of high quality kit around, the decision making process is getting harder, and harder!! Very best wishes Dave
The FS700 is the best all-round choice in my opinion. It offers a great array of functions, its compact, can take pretty much any glass (with an adapter of course), and it's 4K. It's a good broadcast camera and it's a good "film" camera...and I wish I had one. I moved on from broadcast cameras and bought a GH2 a while back, which I really love, and use it for all my low budget productions. When I come into a job that has a need for a better camera I just rent it for the shooting period and can usually use all my rigging and glass on that instead (keeping costs down). Personally, I think that owning an expensive camera is wunderbar (of course if you have a company then it's essential to your image), but as a lone freelancer/indie-filmmaker you have much more flexibility with owning a mid-range and renting a high-end when needed.
Hi Tobias, Many thanks indeed for your reply. I'm going to have to check out the FS700. Interesting.........I've never really thought about renting higher end gear on a job by job basis. To be honest I've had numerous issues with rental houses in the past when I've rented 'B' & 'C' cameras for a shoot. It's OK if the rental house maintains their kit properly!! In the current climate the financial implications of renting gear is an issue. Clients want more bang for their buck, and as such we have to reduce our costs to enable us to make a decent profit from the jobs we are offered. Food for thought though. Many thanks indeed. Dave
When I set up on my own, there was a camera I really, REALLY wanted (Sony DSR-570). However, it was becoming obvious that what my clients were willing to pay for meant opting for a lesser camera (PMW-Z1). So, the deal was, I'd buy the lesser camera and ensure I put it as a line item so it was clear that it wasn't a freebie from me. That way, when I got a job that warranted a DSR570, I'd rent one in, taking the Z1 off the invoice (therefore it was an effective pay 'cut' if I charged a day rate 'including' my Z1). This lead to a curious phenominon. Because I lived and breathed Z1 most of the time, I never got round to renting the higher end kit. Ever. When you own your own kit, and ensure it's rented to your client as a separate line item, it rapidly pays for its self and becomes an 'earner' rather than a cost. But the trouble is, when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. I dare say there were a few jobs I really should have taken a rented DSR570 on, but did what we did on lesser kit because it was there. So, whilst I remain staunchly in favour of the 'owner occupier' model, I feel absolutely in-line with Tobias's point - rent the big hairy cameras for the rare jobs that need them; own (and then rent) the standard 'cooking' cameras for the everyday jobs. Right up to the point where client comes up with amazing job, which could do with big hairy camera, you call in a rented F3 or Red, then watch the plans go 'phut' days before the job. Watch how fast your brain goes 'sod it - I'll bring the FS700'. OTOH, I am absolutely and utterly in favour of renting stuff like KinoFlos, putting up with all the courier crap, not being able to justify buying £8k's worth of lighting that clients don't like paying for.... Right up until you reach the point of nice 1x1 style LED panels at a reasonable cost, and suddenly the world looks like a nail again. Sorry, Kinos win over LED for final result, though logistically and financially, the LEDs are a win. I guess I'm trying to say 'rent stuff that there's no business case to own, but if you do own stuff, will it stop you renting in the right equipment in the future?'
Hi Matt, Many thanks indeed for your response.......very wise words indeed, and under normal circumstances I would have agreed with you 100%, if my reason for buying a new camera was straightforward. Not only will I be using the camera to earn a living, but I will also be using it to shoot my first short film, therefore hiring kit would not be the best option for me. I therefore bit the bullet this week and bought an F3.....(I think the F3 was my best option) I also purchased a set of Sony primes (35mm, 50mm, 85mm), & an Atomos Samurai. So far I'm chuffed to bits with my purchases. I'm going to spend the next couple of weeks getting to grips with everything, so that I'm ready to hit the ground running in the new year. Thank you again for your help, and advice. Very best wishes Dave
Woah! Welcome, Benji! :-D (Much nicer than 'Tricky-woo' from the Herriot books) Hope you're feeling an inner glow of warmth and satisfaction looking at its pictures. May it transmogrify many photons for you.
HI, hope it's okay to "steal" your thread Dave. I am a documentary filmmaker and cameraman for industrial/image films. I never owned a camera. Period. I want one (not necessarily now) and I saved some money. I mostly worked with Sony EX1/3 or Panasonic HPX500 ENG-Style Cameras. For some shots I also used the Canon 5DII with dedicated Glas. First, I thought about the FS100 - prices have fallen ( I can get one used but with full warranty for 3000€ with the kit lens!). Big Sensor - no DSLR flimsyness - amazing lowlight cababilities. The Kitlens will be a no brainer for my run'n gun industrial work, where a lens change means a lot of bad things will hit the sensor and shallow depth of field is not neccessary. Then, I was thinking if I could make it without ND-Filters and the boxy design, which isn't exactly what I think fits best for documentary (direct cinema style handheld). The FS700 is a bit better - ND-Filters, better Grip with the advanced focus button, cinegammas (!!) and the slomo option, which could come in handy for the technical work, I often do. But its a bit bigger and heavier and doubles in price (at least for me it would be at 6700 Euro new incl. Kitlens). Both seem to be good cameras, but I really search for the ultimate filmic look in a small form factor for documentaries. I don't mind the size so much, when the camera is on Tripod (Industrial/Imagefilms). I have found some problems with the harsh highlighthandling of the FS cameras. I still find the C300 to expensive. It's nice for the industrial work, to have 1080/50p onboard (FS100/700), which the C300 hasn't. I also find the highly recommended formfactor a bit uninspiring. The big handle has to be always on camera, because theres all the sound and the display... Then, the F3 was brought to me. I never relly considered this "beast", as it was always out of "range" for me. But with the F5, the prices are falling extremely. I can have one for the same price as the FS700! Okay, it's been a demo for 2 Years with 240 hours, but there is still full warranty. It is a huge and heavy thing when handheld, but managable for me (I hope!). But I need definitly some sort of zoom option like the Kitzoom on the FS's. The Sony Zoom for the F3 ist clearly way to expensive for me. I thought, I use some Canon 17-55/2,8 or 24-105/4 (which I'll have to buy) and my old 80-200/2,8. I also have a 17/2,8 Tokina for Canon EF. But there is no easy Metabones Smart Adapter for the F3. Only the big MTF with the exteriour control box for iriscontrol, which is not an option for handheld work. Or the expensive Optitek solution (1650$!), which needs power from some battery. I think I can't go with the FS100, even it is so unexpensive. The FS700 isn't even perfect, but seems to fit my needs best. But only for more then double the price of the FS100... Both would come with the Kitlens and the Metabones Adapter. Later I'll invest in the cheap Samyang cinelens kit for "serious" work. Maybe the 17-55/2,8 IS for handheld documentary style. I won't need a rig, as I find the FS100/700 handheld pressed with the back to my breast a nice way of filming. I will also have monopod with stabilization, hanging from my neck. I don't like shoulder work that much. It's often to high in position for my kind of documentary style, where I won't get to close to peoples faces all the time. If never anybody had told me about the F3... which has a beautiful way of highlight handling even recorded internally. It seems as if the 14bit internal sensor-reading makes the big difference. The picture would fit me 100%, but with all the optional things like lenses, batteries, cards and adapters for my existing lenses, it's another price class. I like the stabilized Canon-Zooms a lot for my handheld work, but they would be an expensive option on the F3. Any help appreciated...
With apologies to Benji and to Dave, Erik - go find a C100 to play with. It's not as 'clever' as an FS700, It's not as 'complete' as an F3. It's not got the sublime XDCAM workflow, the S&Q, the intervalometer or the 720p of the F3, but... Dude, C-log is only 'that much' away from S-Log, and both are awesome. If the F3 is a little too big, and especially if you have a bagful of L-Series Glass, and would prefer the FS100's cost, the C100 is superb. Just don't ask about timelapse, 720p, slomo - it doesn't do it. The highlight handling is brilliant, the C-Log is astonishing, and it's lovely to work with EOS lenses on an equal footing with DSLR shooters of the Canon persuasion. But if you have a caseful of Nikkors, go find a S/H F3 (with the F5 coming out, as Dave found, there's some lovely bodies to be found). In a perfect world, I'd be where Rick Young is now: 2x EX1Rs, an EX3 and an F3 - all pretty much matched up sharing media and power with a solid proven workflow that's way good enough for Corporate. But a C100, 11-16 Tokina, 24-105 and 70-200 L glass and maybe a fast 50 (Sigma) and 35 (Samyang), you're pretty much set too.
Thanks Matt, I know the C100 sounds pretty nice. But only 25p? No way for SloMo even in post. Would really be a problem for my main client who wants that 50p for the ability to do slomo in post. The EVF seems pretty useless and the display all the way on the wrong place. Way more as the display of the FS's. No problem if there's tripod work, but handheld there is no way for stabilizing the camera on my body without being able to see the display anymore. Maybe I just get the "idea" of this design wrong, I only tried the C300, as the C100 is barely delivered to the broadcast showrooms here in germany. I am willing to sell my Canon glass and get Nikon instead for the F3 - but no IS anymore... The F3 is heavy compared to the other options, so I need IS or some rig - which I don't like to have. Makes one not very flexible and blows the camera opticaly bigger. The good thing - there is no pressure. The next documentary will be made with Canon 60D + 17-55/2,8 from the director and seperate sound recorder. But it would be nice to stop this kind of work as fast as possible...
