BM 2.5k Camera plus Metabones speed booster EF to EF?

Discussion in 'Blackmagic Cinema Camera' started by Mike Thomas, Dec 6, 2013.

  1. Mike Thomas I'm new!

    I understand the metabones speed booster will give you an extra stop and 35mm frame coverage.
    Using the BM 2.5k camera with EF mount, would it work if I placed a metabones EF adapter on it and used my EF lenses to give me the extra stop and 35mm coverage?
    It sounds weird because I am not adapting other lenses to fit, I am using the same EF lenses on an EF camera, but from what I've read it could work well.
    The only problem with this is that I do not believe an EF to EF adapter exists! I contacted Metabones, still awaiting response.
  2. Adam Roberts Chatty!

    It won't work.

    First you need to understand what the SB does and how it does it.

    The SB reduces the image circle of the lens. So in effect it makes the sensor bigger.

    To do this it has to sit between the lens and the mount. Doing this increases the flange focal distance (distance the flange of the lens needs to be from the sensor to achieve correct focus including infinity focus).

    This is not an issue if the lens you are using needs a longer FFD than the mount you are using it on. This is the case with the MFT mount, the Sony E mount and other mirror less cameras when used with DSLR or SLR lenses. There is space for an adaptor without increasing the FFD.
    Mike Thomas likes this.
  3. Mike Thomas I'm new!

    Thanks for the info Adam.
    I was trying to figure a way around getting the BM 4k because I have no interest in 4k, but the problem results in using cine lenses designed for use with a full frame 35mm sensor.
    On the existing 2.5k BM it seems that a full frame cine lens like a zeiss EF compact really isn't any better than a normal equivalent EF zeiss lens.
    Or is it?
  4. Adam Roberts Chatty!

    Hey Mike

    Not sure what you mean by full frame cinema EF lenses. Cinema lenses are usually designed for Super35mm which us close to ASP-C (7D, 600D, etc) and have PL mounts.

    In recent years Zeiss, Canon and others have introduced cinema lenses with EF mounts that cover full frame DSLR sensors like on the 5D.

    These lenses are not cheap tho. About £2500 each for a Zeiss CP.2 or Canon C range of primes.

    Zeiss ZE & ZF, while not cinema lenses, are very good lenses and many use them for video work. I have a set of Cine modded Zeiss ZF.2 (Nikon mount version of the ZE) that I use regularly on the BMCC.

    Full frame DSLR is not a cinema standard. Cinema cameras like the Arri Alexa, Red Epic, Song F55/65 all have Super35mm sensors (about 1.5x crop compared to 5D).

    When you compare the BMCC to Super35mm the crop factor is a lot closer (1.5) than to the 5D (2.3). So it's not really that bad. Moving from Super35mm to the BMCC is similar to moving from 5D to 7D.

    I have the EF mount. I also have the Pocket. Looking to add the BMCC MFT to my set-up to take advantage of the Speed Booster and to give me access to PL glass.

    The glass in the CP.2 is the same as the glass in the ZE/ZF.2. The lens design is the same. The housing is where the difference comes in. You get 300° focus rotation, geared focus ring and aperture ring. Along with common 114mm fronts for use in matte boxes.

    So image wise they are they same. The benefits you get are not impacted by the sensor size.

    If I was buying CP.2s for use on the BMCC I'd grab these: 18, 25, 28, 35, 50. Then add a Tokina 11-16 for my wide stuff. That should cover most needs.

    I have the ZF.2 25, 35, 50 and the Tokina. Also use the Canon 17-55 EF-S f2.8 IS when shooting handheld. The IS comes in very handy.

    Another fantastic option is the new Sigma 18-35 f1.8. Image is outstanding, I'd even say better than the CP.2/ZF.2/ZE and faster.
  5. Matt Davis Administrator

    By which we're talking about the Zeiss *photography* lenses used for cine? ;)

    So, as Adam states, the Speed Booster effectively turns a FF lens into its APS-C equivalent by shrinking the image, and the smaller image is brighter, so you get the 'speed boost'. A 50mm FF lens provides the same angle of view as a 35mm lens would on an APS-C/Super35 sensor. This wizardry requires a bit of space betwixt end of lens and start of camera that WON'T fit in the 4K camera.

    BUT, because you have no interest in the 4K camera, and prefer the incredible bang-for-buck of the 2.5K camera with its MFT mount - yes, the Speed Booster WILL work on the MFT, you'll be effectively in the same position as you would be putting APS-C lenses onto the BMCC.

    So, we're all wondering if it will work if we put APS-C lenses onto the MFT Speed Booster and then put that onto the BMCC...

    I sat down with a pencil and a cup of coffee and tried to work it out, and whilst googling for the specifications, I found this:

    See the table at the bottom, which kind of agrees with the concept of a speedbooster turning FF lenses into APS-C lenses and then the BMCC's crop factor from the APSC list, in that a 50mm f1.4 Zeiss in Nikon mount would attach to the BMCC 2.5K camera as a 76.5mm f1.1 <-- yes, f1.1!

    This is with the new SpeedBooster made specifically for the BMCC:

    So... Yeah. Zeiss primes. Fill your boots, knowing the differential between FF and Super35. The SpeedBooster converts the BMCC into (effectively) a S35 camera. Methinks, at the price of the BMCC at the moment, the extra $500 or so makes the camera a no-brainer for those not needing 4K.

    Just wish (argh, wince, gnash of teeth, renting of garments, etc) they made an EF version as I have now gone Canon throughout. I must wait for the 4K, otherwise a couple of grand would be sailing out of my bank account before I've finished the third cup of coffee today.
  6. Adam Roberts Chatty!

    ASP-C lenses on a Speed Booster on the BMCC work fine. No vignetting. The 18-35 is a perfect example.

    They have an EF to MFT Speed Booster in the works. The problem is that there are no electronic contacts in the BMCC MFT mount so you'll not be able to control the aperture of electronic Canon lenses like the L series. Full manual lenses like the Canon CN or Zeiss CP.2 would not be a problem tho.

    I've been using the Speed Booster on the Pocket camera and the image quality is really good. It does have some impact on the bokeh but in most cases its "invisible".
  7. Mike Thomas I'm new!

    Adam and Matt,
    many thanks for the info, I appreciate it.
    Regarding the "cine full frame lenses" I was just referring to what both Zeiss and Canon say-
    "Canon Cinema prime lenses provide a full-frame 36mm x 24mm image circle for full compatibility with the Canon EOS-1D C, EOS C500, EOS C300 Digital Cinema cameras, the EOS 5D Mark III.." (Zeiss says similar)
    That is why I refer to them as full frame, although super35mm is really the term I guess.

    When I got into shooting digital video I bought a Canon 7D and a few canon and zeiss lenses. I do have an IS canon lens but it's a 28-135 which is awesome for daylight but far too slow for interiors (unless you light the hell out of it). So I will definitely heed your suggestion and get a faster IS lens. Are you saying that Sigma is IS?

    I bought a zeiss distagon 1.4 - 35mm which is brilliant for interiors in cramped space and of course low light conditions. This has become my go to lens for interior shooting, although with more space the zeiss 50mm 1.4 is great (the equivalent canon is also very good).

    So thus far all EF lenses and they really do work well, and the footage shoot on the 7D looks very good in 24p, but here is the big thing-

    I know filmmakers are using the BM 2.5, shooting RAW then doing the final output in HD, so theoretically the final HD benefits greatly from having been shot at 2.5.

    My editing notebook handles HD just fine and would probably handle the 2.5 raw files from the BM well enough, but highly unlikely it would handle the 4k raw from the forthcoming BM 4k camera. Then there's the gpu, the insane file sizes, etc. You could easily spend more on an editing platform than on your camera!

    But I am thinking I could shoot in 4k raw, color correct in davinci (or similar) then output to HD to edit and render the final product in HD? Seems to me that in either 2.5k or 4k on the BM, when you drop that down to HD the image should be so much better than shooting HD to HD, and it would make editing much, much easier.

    I have looked and looked at the zeiss and canon cine lenses (i'm sure you guys have seen the company from china on ebay who takes the normal zeiss/canons and modifies them to the "cine lenses," interesting but i can't find any good reviews on these) but then I saw something new from Zeiss which is hitting the streets beginning of January-

    Zeiss Otus 1.4 55mm

    A distagon type lens and not cheap, but wow the results are exactly what I am looking for. Designed for 35mm dslrs, it seems to me that this would work very well with the 4k BM camera, canon 5d, etc.

    I contacted them and while they said it would produce great video images, of course it's not designed for video (i don't personally care about a de-clicked aperture and none of the lenses i currently own have "cine gearing" and seriously this one looks like the ultimate low light all around lens, but once again working optimally with a 35mm dslr.

    Have you guys seen this, and what are your opinions on it?
  8. Adam Roberts Chatty!

    Based on your lens choice on the 7D, 35mm and 50mm, you would probably want a 25mm for the BMCC. The Zeiss 25/2.8 is good, the 25/2 is better.

    On the BMCC the 25 would give you a similar FOV at the 35 on the 7D and the 35 would be similar to the 50.

    The 18-35 f1.8 Sigma does not have IS. It's probably a better option than the Zeiss 25 tho.

    The new 55/1.4 looks amazing. Probably overkill for video and at an extortionate price.

    I doubt very much that you notebook will manage 2.5K RAW. It requires a fairly powerful GPU to work with in Resolve. Processed via Adobe Camera RAW in After Effects or Lightroom might work but it'll be painfully slow.
  9. Mike Thomas I'm new!

    I will definitely look into the Sigma.
    Yes 4 grand for that Otus is a lot of money but it will be available in jan on so I think I will do some testing with it against the lenses I have on both the 7D and either the BM 2.5 or 4k. What I really want is a lens that will give me a super clean image with a lot of depth around 1.5.

    I am currently looking into switching my gpu out for something which will handle the 2.5 or 4k, so if I can successfully do that I will go ahead with BM.

    If not I might go with the Canon 5d III and continue on the HD route.
  10. Diego Gilly I'm new!

    Adam, or whoever has any experience with the BMCC and metabones:

    I have a MFT BMCC and have a set of Rokinon EF mounts, I am waiting for the Speedbooster that is supposed to come out soon (it's been a while tho, I also asked them about a MFT to PL in the begining of the year and they said "really soon", so I do not know what to expect). Since I am growing a bit impatient and loosing sleep over this, I was wondering if there are other options to bridge/and or/stack adaptors in order to achieve this? Like for example:

    Buying the metabones MFT to Sony E and then stacking up a Sony NEX to Canon EF? Or (I'm pretty sure a nikon to EF does not exist because of the flange distance, but it is worth asking), getting the Mitakon Lens turbo MFT to Nikon A, since Metabones is out of stock, and stacking on top a Nikon A to EF (if that even exists, because I have not been able to find anything, and I believe it is the FFD issue).

    Let me know if you can think of any provisional options and your opinion on my suggestions!

    Thank you in advance!!!

    Diego Gilly
  11. Diego Gilly I'm new!

    Oh! Sorry there was another option:

    Metabones SB Sony E to EF and ten getting an alternate adaptor (as small as possible) to adapt Sony in to my MFT camera...
  12. Adam Roberts Chatty!

    There is currently no viable way of using EF mount lens on a MFT mount with a Speed Booster.

    Metabones do have an EF version in the works. The issue is translating the MFT signals to EF signals so that you can control the electronic aperture. It took them 2yrs to get it working on the E mount Smart Adaptor. The early versions were hit and miss.

    While you don't need electronic control you are a niche compared to those who do. So I can understand they want it working before release.

    You won't succeed going the E mount route as the FFD of E mount is less than MFT.

    Sit tight. I'm pretty sure they will be shipping in January.
  13. Diego Gilly I'm new!

    Cool adam! Thank you! Hopefully you are right about the date, and yes I am a niche and thats why I thought I could find an alternate option somewhere!!! Hahaha

    Cheers mate! Have a great new year!

    Diego Gilly
  14. Adam, what about EF to EF? I understand that an EF to MFT adapter from Metabones has been in the works and that being able to control the lenses had proven difficult because of Canon's software language that has to be reverse engineered. However, I was wondering if an EF to EF adapter would be much easier to do. Their EF mount version of the camera seems to work fine with EF lenses, and such an adapter wouldn't need any circuitry apart from working as a bridge (must in the same way as an extension tube) and the wonderful optics to squeeze the image to better fit the sensor.

    So am I mistaken in believing this is very doable? Me needs it bad.

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