The Shuttle 2 is an external recorder that records either uncompressed or Apple ProRes 422 from the cam's HDMI output. I wonder if anyone here is using that recorder.
Obviously it is better for color correction as one 'skips' one compression stage. But some articles on the net claim that the cam's AVCHD compressor is a different high level of quality.
I do not have the means to have an opinion about that as I don't own several cams. Software wise I'm just starting to look into Resolve lite. So far I have been using only the color board of FCP X and I found the possibilities of manipulation without awful artifacts completely amazing. Again I do not know how it would be with originally ProRes encoded footage.
Any experiences with this or any other external recorder? I would be glad to hear about it.

Thanx!

I don't have the Blackmagic Shuttle but do have the Atomos Ninja. Which does ProRes 422 HQ. Same thing really.

The output from the HDMI is still 8bit. So you will still get banding in gradients like skies. Where there ProRes shines is in very detailed scenes like trees or hair. This is when the AVCHD compression starts to show.

If you are doing green screen the extra detail worth it.

Sadly you can't shoot 1080/50p or 1080/60p to the Ninja or the Shuttle.

Thanks a lot Adam,

very much appreciated!

Jurgen

Hi, I have the Hyperdeck connected to my AF100. I can think of 7 main things you gain when using this over card compression.

1) You get 8bit 422 instead of 8 bit 420, this is double the colour "resolution" which is why the footage will key (green screen) better and results in smoother transitions in gradients (less banding), you can get great results with the compressed footage but 422 is better especially when projected onto a larger screen.

2) You reduce your compression ratio by around 10 as you are recording to a maximum of around 220mbs instead of 24mbs, what does this mean in a real world scenario? There are no compression artefacts (macro blocking) messing with the noise pattern, this allows you to reduce the noise far more effectively in post (Neat video) and its possible to reduce in camera noise reduction (coring) to squeeze a little more detail into your footage and remove banding issues (if any). Basically it's a finer more controlled noise pattern that's not mixed with compression artefacts thus looks better and can gain you nearly half a stop at a push (as blacks can be made useable)

3) I would need to check but in the AF you also have simultaneous recordings to the SD card which is great practice for backup and also gives you footage for the director to review while the SSD footage is being backed up by the DIT on set, I'm sure the FS can go this.

4) you have recorded to a post production codec not a deliverable codec which removes any need for transcoding and speeds up the post workflow.

5) Prores gives you I frame encoding, this is great for vfx work/motion tracking and action scenes, personally I feel 24p In particular is smoother with I frames. (Google this for a better understanding than I could give you)

6) Specifically to the FS, the Hyperdeck is also a HDMI to SDI converter, you can now interface with professional AV racks and send your feed over a greater distance (via testing HDMI i have got about 6-10 meters where as SDI has gone way over 80 meters) pretty big deal for you FS100 guys in a broadcast environment.

7) Being a FS100 owner you may rent or move up the F3 one day? If so you have 10bit recording at your fingertips

Can also add that the Hyperdeck is so cheap that even paired with a SmallHD DP4 you are still saving cash over the Atomos Samurai and possibly the Ninja but also you now have two devices that are covering the same thing as the Samurai/Ninja which for me meant if the screen failed I didn't lose my recorder and if the recorder failed I don't lose my screen. Downside is more power needs, internal 1 hour battery but that's nothing with a V-Lock and the mini SDI is not ideal though that's the same as the Samurai. I think cost to performance the Hyperdeck is a winner.

Hope this helps.

Ant

All solid points Anthony.

The Shuttle is a steal for what it does.

Would be great if it could deal with 1080/50p or 1080/60p as you could then capture the super slowmo from the FS700 in ProRes.

No third party devices can record above 1080 30p at the moment, I'm sure one day they could but from what I have read Sony has its own propriety recorders for the F55/F5 and FS700. Apart from the Phantom cams there is always a compromise with capturing slow motion. Be that will be a small part of your production the current crop of external recorders will do you fine.

Hope that helps

That's not the case. The Convergent Design Gemini444 can record 60fps in Full HD.

http://www.convergent-design.com/Products/Gemini444.aspx

It is expensive tho...

If you use that with the FS700 you can capture the Super Slowmo in RGB 444 via the HD-SDI out.

This is possible as the FS700 records the slowmo to a buffer and then plays it out the buffer at 60p so it can be recorded to the card.

What compression the FS700 is putting on the footage during capture is unclear (tho I doubt any as its working hard enough just capturing) but the dump process is output out the HD-SDI as 8bit 422 and to the card as 8bit 420 AVCHD.

So with the Gemini you could capture that uncompressed footage.

I should of said "practical", with a $5K camera that's not on the radar just as E-Images top tripod at £4700 is not on the radar ;0)

Also via the FS100 (you own this or the 700?) you need two SDI outs to record that frame rate and you only have HDMI, I have heard of higher frame rate capture via HDMI though

But only capture as my h as the buffer can hold, much like the Phantom camera but I would argue that the cost of the FS700 plus the Gemini to achieve a high quality 240fps is not worth it, you could rent the real slow Motion camera and get silly frame rates for a hell of a lot less. The amount if jobs you could do via renting that cam as supposed to buying the gem would have you make a name for yourself as the slow mo guy and would put you in a good position work wise. Owning the gem for high quality FS700 footage isn't enough of a selling point over a regular FS700 owner I'm afraid.

Stick with the shuttle or Atomos and go compressed on your high speed footage and you'll get great results

I agree. Was just pointing out that there are options to record 60p to an external recorded. They are not practical from a cost point of view but if you already had a Gemini (say with an F3 rig) that would not be an issue and you could add high quality slowmo to your set-up.



I don't have either. I have the FS100 and an Atomos Ninja 2. Only really use the Ninja when I need any of the things you listed above.

Hi,
being the original poster I'm quite happy with this enlightening discussion.
@Anthony, thanks a million for your elaboration. My shuttle is on its way from B+H and I should have it on the 2nd of Jan.

That's great news, you're welcome. If you need any help repost here @me and I'll try my best to help.

Also; http://nofilmschool.com/2012/12/sound-devices-12-bit-4444-prores-pix-v3-0-firmware/#more-38287

Worth keeping an eye on for the future

When Sony first released the FS100 they were basically giving away the 128 gig FMU, buy the FS and get a $500 rebate off the FMU. Looks it sells for $639 now
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/672424-REG/Sony_HXR_FMU128_HXR_FMU128_Flash_Memory_Unit.html

Which I got and am really happy with as this will allow you to record all the frame rates including the 60FPS. If you are using FCP X you can edit with the native AVCHD codec which does convert to pro res in the background so using these external records to convert to pro res doesn't matter as much when using FCP X. It is made to fit with the camera also so no mounting or external battery needed which is nice.

Sorry, you may need to do a little reading up on all of this as this is a completely different device and recording format that does a completely different thing and I don't think you actually grasp what each device does.

What you are using is essentially big 128 gig SD card, advertised as a backup device to give you "super long run times" and dual recording at a maximum of 24mbs. This is recording the same compressed AVCHD output in 8 bit 4:2:0 and doesn't benefit you at all. In fact it just loses you $600 plus and drops all your eggs in one basket. Two 64 gig cards will give you the same thing and you could spend the change on a set of lights or a lens!

The Ninja, Samurai and Hyperdeck Shuttle external recorders are not converting the footage to Prores they are "recording" the footage to prores. This is a 220mbs all I- Frame 10 bit 4:2:2 capture codec, 1 hour of this footage is around 130 gig, compare that to the 11 hours of recording to the 128 gig sony device and you will see which device is throwing information away and which is retaining it.

You can "convert" your AVCHD to prores in FCPX but that doesn't make it "native" prores footage, it will still carry over any problems from the AVCHD, such as macro blocking, lower colour resolution and IPB frame capture. Don't confuse what this recorder and the Sony flash card are doing, tell a client you are capturing externally and then give them AVCHD footage and you will lose a lot of credibility with that client, all the gear no idea is not a nice branding.

Also, i shoot all day events sometimes and have had many days in the pit lane of the British Superbikes and have relied on AVCHD capture in this environment due to the long days and long captures waiting for something to happen, can i just advise that if compressed is the way you need to shoot, I wouldn't suggest to anyone to lump there entire recording to one device!? What if it fails? Is lost or damaged? That's your whole day, gone!. Use SD cards in 8 gig (max 16 gig) capacity when recording to AVCHD so that your day is broken up into multiple reels. This workflow is pretty common and for a good reason.

Even though the Hyperdeck is 10 bit the FS100 only outputs 8 bit so you won't get 10 bit out of the FS100. "all the gear no idea is not a nice branding."

I always use the dual recording on the FS100, 1 signal to the 128 gig FMU and the other to SD card so I have back ups. And I also have not had any issues with the AVCHD codec.

Here is video comparing the 2:


Another comparison with the FS700


Matthew Allard:
"So after my last test of the FS700 a few people wanted to know if the image would improve by recording to an external recorder. Well in short NO."


And also a quote about using the Ninja from Crooked Path Films:
"Did a similar test with the FS100 and Ninja. Images were identical except for more aliasing and icky noise pattern in the Ninja (Prores 422). Also did extreme grading to both and also some chroma keying and the outcome was the same...again with more unpleasing noise pattern with the Ninja. AVCHD is a great codec."

Yes you are right 100%, the FS100 is an 8 bit camera, have never said otherwise. I told you the difference between your AVCHD and the Prores capture standard of the shuttle as you have appeared to of mistaken these two products and think they do the same job, otherwise why suggest it as an alternative? its like me saying your football is silly, you should use this tennis ball? not the same is it?

Your codec is 8 bit 4:2:0 IPB frames at max 24mbs, Prores via the recorders mentioned is 10 bit 4:2:2 All I-Frame at max of around 220-270mbs. It's an improvement at the basic level, less so to static shots and less so on a computer screen with Vimeo/youtube compression. You don't approach external capture with the same profile you use for AVCHD, no where is this recorder providing you with more colour information, this is where the extreme grading comments fall down. It's not gaining DR or a higher colour space or becoming RAW, it's the same bit standard as the AVCHD capture. It's in the noise pattern and what can be done with it in post instead of in camera reduction which leads to banding, what should be happening is that you are getting the shot right as much as possible in camera so that it can be pulled a little with contrast adjustments. Macro blocking is more evident in high compression 4:2:0, why? It just is dude, might not concern you on your computer but projected on to a huge screen or transmitted to a TV set and the quality of the original recording starts to matter and it messing with noise pattern can be a real bitch. It's why the BBC has standards for broadcast capture.

Great idea on the dual recording, not doubting that but again, not really what we was talking about and not really relevant to a purchase decision of an external recorder. I mentioned in my bullet points that via the recorder I get a high quality copy and the AVCHD copy as a redundancy. In reality we are only using the recorder when we are on a higher profile job and usually we have a DIT backing up our reels.

I have no idea why someone is not seeing enough of a difference (which I can get) and another is seeing a worse image with extra aliasing. All I can guess at is that his sharpness setting in camera is too high and the 4:2:0 compressed shot smoothes it out with its reduction in edge sharpness and macro blocking.

By this I mean that you compared your AVCHD capture/backup device at over $600 to a $350 device that does something completely different and you did so in a way that said you was right, as if we all missed a trick when actually you had your wires crossed. All the gear no idea comment was cheeky but was just a way of saying if you had made the above mistake with a client who had hired you for external capture you would fluff there schedule, possibly the shoot and not be hired by them again, a bad rap can go far in this business.

I nearly didn't look at the video examples as I dreaded the would all be the same and I'd have to go back and fourth with someone over a pointless compressed Vimeo video and bang, one "test" is a slow pan outside a window during the day with slight over exposure in the AVCHD that oddly has 50 seconds of black screen at the end and the other is a static shot of a couple of random objects, no movement, no grading, no green screen, nothing.

These people always make this mistake, if your camera profile is set to get the best from an ungraded AVCHD shot with coring racked up and no movement what are you expecting to see in the prores capture?

It's why these tests get ignored by the profession and championed by the noob who doesn't know is AVCHD from his coffee

Ok Anthony, chill out!! Look I wasn't saying to get the FMU instead of the Hyperdeck I was just mentioning it - sorry if it was off topic and confusing but enough with the insults.

I'm not directing them at you, the noob thing is at the guys doing the tests, they just don't get it and put that info out there as a learning device. Really pisses me off sometimes as there are also noob producers, directors, actors etc and once they get this rubbish in there head you're now trying to convince a paying customer why its ok to trust me. At one point you couldn't shoot anything low budget without the damn 5D being mentioned.

You're a victim of this disinformation, probably why you bought your FMU device up in this conversation and maybe why you think the devices are the same. You probably think, what are these guys going on about, because you're not informed and that's not your fault, its the cloud of rubbish out there pretending to be expert training.

All I am reading is "buy this $600 dollar device that does the exact same thing that the camera already does" and when enlightened I get "look, look, I now know what I am talking about as I have seen these two vids", I am thinking "but you suggested the FMU as an alternative?" And get a little narked, sorry dude.

Sorry if I come across quite hard but you was so sure of yourself even with a whole thread to read and the Internet to confirm your thoughts and even after my reply explaining where you have gone wrong you took offence at my "gear no idea comment" and didn't take onboard the advice that might actually save you a client.

It's cool, read a few books on the subject, at least the camera manual, don't fall victim to this disinformation, it will hurt your skill development in the long run. We are all learning, make sure it's reputable.

Peace