My thoughts on the Canon C300 and the new RED Scarlet (oh and a whole new 4k video shooting Canon DSLR!)

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Big old day in the camera world, I don’t think I have seen so much thigh rubbing by so many camera geeks and the twitter feed has been hilarious (not forgetting a badly timed new version of AVID announced today!) Canon disappointed many by not releasing a kick-ass printer :(…instead we have their much anticipated S35 camcorder. The C300. We also have a concept 4k video shooting DSLR and the new version of the RED Scarlet! Phew.

So what do we have? First off…The C300. It’s a lovely looking camera. I like small cameras. Easy to travel with, easily pimped up to configurations you want. The idea of a brain for a camera is becoming more and more common although this is not quite that.

Here it is above with one of the smashing new lenses (these new lenses look amazing…more on those soon)

So what do we get. Well…internal 422 Canon XF 50mb/s codec. A flat log setting in there too by the way. 4k sensor but only captures 1080p. Capable of overcrank BUT only at 720p. Also only 8 Bit SDI out. Both rather disappointing to be honest. I really had hoped for 1080p 60p as both the FS100 and AF100 have it (although the F3 is also 720p) There is a PL version or an EF version. I don’t know if you can switch mounts. Be great if you could.

Now the key thing for me is how is it to operate and what are the images like. I have not touched it or shot with it so these thoughts are PURELY on specs and price.

First off let’s talk about the market. We have the DSLR crowd who have invested heavily in EOS lenses. We have users who have upgraded to get better audio and less image users to the more expensive but still relatively affordable FS100 or AF100 and then we have the F3 which is priced much higher around $13k with some good and some not so good specs.

Canon have put the list price of the C300 at a whopping $20k. Now of course this is *list* so it will be cheaper. They are going for the F3 and higher market and I can see why…although they have never had a camera in this price bracket before or at this level so it’s bold as hell. Personally I want to see a camcorder at the price bracket of the FS100 as so many DSLR shooters would be SO tempted by a $5000 EF touting S35 camcorder that takes their lenses even at the cost of a lower codec. That is where the DSLR market wants to step up to next. Not a $20k camera. Of course that is NOT what they are going for. Just saying. For me I feel this is a market they should be going hard at.

Oh, it ships in Jan 2012.

I will add to this later. But in meantime these are my summary thoughts…so far. Nice looking cameras. Nice on board codec, great for docs. Takes EF lenses without waiting for a never to ever come out Birger adaptor (although I heard no AF support? Surely not true!) Too much money. Sorry, I think it is. Especially with the competition out there. BUT I cannot wait to shoot on it and I may be convinced! Oh and one other highlight. Vince was looking super slick at the press event. I need the number of your hairdresser sir! Will go well with my mo!!

Check out the Mr. LaForet directed video, shot by  Polly Morgan “Mobius”

Mobius – 1080p HQ from Vincent Laforet on Vimeo.

 

Mobius :: Behind The Scenes from Blake Whitman on Vimeo.

Canon took a leaf out of the Apple book and did a one final…oh we have a new DSLR 4k video shooting concept camera we are working on….Now that is very interesting as is full frame…BUT for it record 4k it goes to a 1dmkiv style APS-H crop. But still pretty good. Read more here. The thing is the word “concept” always means don’t expect it soon!!!

RED also chose today to bring us the Scarlet X. As expected they have dumped the 2/3″ chip as “not being good enough in today’s market” and are now using Epic chips which were not passed for use in the Epic (not sure if this is correct as their site is down and getting this off of twitter. Will correct when I have more info!).

So Jim Jannard has given us these interesting specs and it’s shipping dates (this is key as this camera has been coming for quite some time now, my grandfather told me stories about it when I was a nipper and sat on his knee!)

So this is what we have as far as I can tell…5k at 12fps max, 4k at 30fps max, 3k at 48fps max, 2k at 60ps max, 1k or 120fps max. Interesting…Resolution is good, although substantially capped…it HAS to be otherwise it would be an EPIC! One thing you must realise it that only the 4k will give you the field of view of your lenses. 2k and 1k are just window crops of the sensor. So you 60fps will be a very “zoomed” in image. That is going to be a big pain. Changing the field of view to overcrank is not great to be honest. It’s not the drop in resolution that bothers me it’s if you shoot at 4k which you will to get the S35 aesthetic then if you want to do a slow motion of same shot you simply can’t without backing away, changing lens or simply dealing with it being tighter…

So that is what it is….essentially a scaled back RED Epic (which I own). Same weight (heavy), same accessories (pricey), consumes less power. Two versions a Canon mount version that DOES work with autofocus on EF lenses and a Ti PL version. It does something my Epic cannot currently do, playback in camera. Prices are as follows. Just under $10k basic. Full kit for under $14k. Not sure what that means. I expect you get the SSD module and most likely a touch screen LCD. Canon mount ships 17th November and PL mount (which costs $1500 more)

Oh…the Scarlet- X shoots RAW.

As it’s the same chip as the Epic there is no way it will be as good as the Canon C300 in low light but it will be upgradable to the new Dragon chip in 2012 which will promise better low light sensitivity.

Now it is cheaper than the C300. Is it better? Dunno. Not shot with either. It’s essentially an EPIC light. I love my Epic but have had hideous reliability issues with it. Will RED carry on with having BETA firmware in the Scarlet or will they make it more stable. At the lower price point they are going to ship more so it will need to be. I expect the C300 will be super reliable straight out of the starting block…but one is 1080p internal 50mb’s codec and the other is RAW and shoots 4k…I was never a big believer in the need for 4k and more but owning an EPIC has opened my eyes to the amazing possibilities and flexibility it offers you. Shame it needs a lot of computer processing power to deal with the files unless you but the expensive, but essential RED ROCKET card. Not only do you have re-framing resolution but 4k is future proofing. Like when I shot HD for SD projects a few years back….

This is a super powerful camera and the most affordable 4k/5k camera ever. It is a big deal and looks to be a bargain. Just remember that you do need to buy stuff for it and the workflow is a whole different beast!!

Yes I have reservations as an Epic owner who has had two very bad experiences.You can read about the nightmares we had on HOST here.

Also is it just me or I am that is disappointed that we no longer have the Scarlet, per se? We have a “dumbed down” Epic. Same body, same sensor, heavily reduced features. I wanted a smaller, lighter Scarlet that we were promised 3 years ago, then 2 years ago then 1 year ago?  Instead we have this. Not that this is bad. It’s great! Just a shame the 3 year+ wait yields us nothing what we were promised. This camera will be hugely useful to many. It’s just not the Scarlet. It’s the Epic light.

Honestly, I love the look of the new Canon and the concept camera interests me a lot as I love full frame but that price point is high and people ARE going to be tempted by the Scarlet X price point…I believe the camera goes on sale TODAY!

The Canon seems clearly to be designed for broadcast use, friendly HD codec, easy post production pipeline, reliable manufacturer. It will be approved for full acquisition. The Scarlet is for indie filmmakers and commercials etc…ironic as Canon are aiming for the cinema crowd and i just don’t see it BUT  they will get it but broadcasters will lap this up!!

Oh…one last thing…does all these cameras coming out mean you cannot shoot on your 60D, 5Dmkii, 7D, Gh2? NONSENSE…They are just tools. Expensive ones. Me? I shoot with the right camera for the right job and sometimes that may just be a $500 stills camera!! Trust me…owning one of these new cameras is not going to suddenly going to make your work better! Use what you have!!

Oh and by the way. I ordered a Scarlet.

 

 

 

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302 comments

  1. Nothing announced today that makes me want to move away from my 2 5D’s and 60D. Money spent more wisely on other production costs in my opinion. I’m an indy filmmaker.

    1. I’m there with you, Eric. I’m about 6 months or so away from picking up a 2nd body, and I’m happy with my 5dmk2. I’m not seeing anything close enough to my price range to convince me to make the jump. The new 1dmk4 looks appealing, but I can always pick up a refurb mk2 for 1900.

      However, I understand that these cameras are (most likely) being marketed to people with more money / backing than myself. It’s a different market.

    2. Not to go off topic, but what do you think of the 60D? I am going to be picking up a new camera for grin and grab work and was looking for opinions about the camera.

      1. Love the 60D. Moved up from a T2i which I now use as 2nd camera for some interviews. 60D has solid build, decent sensor, nice performance all round. I use it primarily (95%) for video. Shoot 1080p/24 with 18-200mm and 50mm lenses. Easy workflow with Premiere Pro. Dual audio. I’m temped though by RED or C300 (awesome post here by Phillip). Though I’m clearly in aspiring category I’ve done work with Cirque, Disney on Ice, Macy’s and like the idea of upping my game! (Oh: link to my vids: http://www.starkinsider.com/tv). Cheers!

      2. We’ve been shooting on a 7D for a year and picked up the 60D for the same reason you’re looking at it for about three months ago. Have not regretted the choice for that level of work. It’s our B Roll camera and back up body if anything happens to the 7D. Major Pro: I find the articulated screen is great for corner shots or worms eye where you have no way of easily monitoring. A small Con: The controls on top only work for single settings, so you have to use the LCD monitor and buttons on back for changing some settings and it’s not as quick to get into movie mode as the 7D, but all in all it is a great camera. One strange things was that when we ordered about two months ago online, the price went down by $80 within a day. We replaced the order, got it at the lower price, and then the price shot back up again. Keep an eye out for good deals.

    3. I have shot over 30 short films and countless events with my HVX200. Some of them people don’t believe were shot with the stock lens. It really is about honing your skills and not as much the camera.

      The only reason I haven’t moved to DSLR is because 80% of my work is event and I need a video camera for that. I have been watching for the Scarlet for some time, but not sure if it is something I need to tell a good story.

    4. I second the motion Eric! No disrespect to Vince and the new Canon C300 but I could have shot that same short with the Canon 60D, treat it in post and have the same look. Or Even with my Sony F3. It’s all in the eye of the shooter and the story they are telling.I wish people will stop believing the hype that all theses marketing team from these Camera companies are feeding us. All my movies looks high budget but I’ve never used any of the Red series nor will I. I’m happy with my Canon 60D and Sony F3.

  2. Well said Phil, Always important to never lose sight of the bigger picture – Get a Camera that leaves you with some budget left over to put $$$ into actors + lighting/gaffers + audio production as they will be far more important than having more resolution / framerates / Camera features…

    I think that FF 4K camera is by far the most interesting bit of news from today – sadly it is the furthest away!

    1. Totally agree Dennis!
      Philip, thank you for the consideration you always have for your audience. You always seem to bring it back to what is at the core of being creative, and you never forget to remind us to just go out and create! It’s not about the gear you don’t have, its about what you do with the gear you do have.

  3. Phew! I can now go to bed, rest easy, safe in the knowledge that my dear little FS100 isn’t suddenly irrelevant, worthless and past it. Interview footage still looks gorgeous.

    My dear beloved clients aren’t going to see the difference, won’t want to pay the difference, and would hardly benefit from the difference. It’s only my ego that would like to film on Scarlet. Ignoring the huge storage overhead, the audio issues, the stamina of the power system, the software, all the extras…

    But for a comedic break… Poor Canon. Not a good day. Not a good price point, and the feature set? Having said that, if that 4K DSLR could do 1080p HD on a Full Frame with a clean HDMI output and a headphone jack for monitoring, with the same promise as the 1DX for rolling shutter, still keeping your AF and IS, that would be a better step.

  4. Will future Canons (MKIII/8D/70D?) be stumped on movie futures so they don’t compete with pricier movie dedicated Canons…cause that would be a real shame!

    1. I believe RED is winning this round, big time…

      It won’t amaze me if thousands of 5D markii owners, looking for an upgrade will be convinced by the Scarlet X’s specs for under $10,000. RED waited like a thief in the night, swooped in, and steals potentially valuable clients from under Canon’s nose.

      The C300 is cool, but it’s too expensive for the market Canon should have catered too…

      1. It is expensive1 But compared to the RED Scarlet and Sony F3, is not way off. It is a good piece off equipment. Is sealed!! Non of the other cameras has it! Alexa , yes, but is 75.000… I think the price will come before release or a while after it. I used so many cameras and I think I know what I’m talking about. Did many many days on RED. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t. That it is the biggest problem. They way they are build.. SUCKS big time!! mini connectors.. The menu?? incredible stupid. All these different codecs for every framerate… ??? 4K ? Do we make Blockbusters for IMAX ?? Don’t think so.. 4K makes post production cumbersome and longer.. More money!!! The Canon is a great tool. Shoot be some cheaper?? Oh yeah.. I wish. Would it be nice to have dual link 4:4:4 out like the Sony F3,..? Oh yeah!! But probably it would be so good with the sensor it has, it would kill all the other brands. That they can not do, because they make tons of lenses sold for Sony’s Panasonics etc… So there are political reasons they limit the possibilities of this camera.. We are fould every way. But the C300 is , in my opinion, the best way to be fouled.

    2. On specs alone, yes. But a fully functional Scarlet will set you back more than $20,000 plus a crew. And then you will never know if the thing will fail on set. It will be a crap shoot. No thanks.

  5. My question: Does the Scarlet shoot 24fps 1080 HDRx? That’s rather conspicuously absent from the charts.

    I know that the 12fps 4k HDRx might be handy for still photographers, but from a filmmaker’s standpoint, 12fps is pretty useless. If it can do 24fps HDRx, then goodbye Canon. If not, then it’s still a winner IMHO, but not quite as much of a knockout (especially if the Canon has amazing low-light).

    1. RED is supposed to be working on a new compression method for HDRX, so you can expect a free firmware upgrade that will bring HDRX to 4K 24p!

      Canon keeps making the amazing camera that could have been perfect if only… They didn’t have a more important agenda then making the best camera they possibly can.

      All you have to do is look at RED and see the difference…

      ; )~

  6. As soon as I saw the specs for the Canon C300 I thought “made for broadcast use”; a 5DmkII image that doesn’t require workarounds (bet they would’ve liked that when filming the finale of House!)

    And yes, amen to remembering that these cameras are simply nothing more than tools: lets not forget that telling the story comes first!

  7. owning ones of these new cameras is not going to suddenly going to make your work better! Use what you have!!

    Thanks TheBloom

    i need to hear that sometimes when i about to buy something…! THANK YOU

  8. Philip Bloom…you so wise!! Good thing you wrote what you did (last paragraph) I was seriously considering throwing my 550d in a puddle & selling 90% of my possessions to get a scarlet! Although it would be awesome, my 550d is still EPIC. Also thanks for making this website, you have literally taught me everything I know about shooting haha.

    BC

  9. Well said Phil, C300, Scarlet don’t encourage me to buy. My 5DM2 is perfect for my job and I still use Sony Z7 for some DV works, cos codes are so light and achieve same-day edits, all job done and get paid! These announcements made me think I wanted to purchase more 5DM2s or 7Ds… Surely I’d love to have one of these monsters (C300 most likely) for my own project that has no deadlines! Thanks for this post, nice meal? 😉

  10. I Like the red so far based on the specs. But i saw the Canon 1dx and the photo plus in NYC i must say the codec looked clean no moire issues and i was wearing my favorite moire shirt 🙂 and at high iso’s it was very clean.I think people will be surprised with that camera for shooting motion

  11. What we want is 1080p with 120fps (60 would do) full frame, 2 audio ins (mini jacks are fine), audio monitor, few stops better in low light… that’s what Canon should produce… please! 5DM3 or 5Dx, whichever! 😉

  12. For the price of a C300, I can buy 33 Sony NEX-5n. I already have one, and I’m planing on getting one more plus a back-up. So that leave me $18,000.00 to spend on other film-making tools 🙂

  13. Sounds like it’s time for a new set of lenses that work specifically with the Scarlet X. Let’s break down our technological points here. Not sure if you can hang with me, but you better be ready. Okay. “Canon guys shoot with anamorphic lenses in order to supply an appropriate 2.35:1 aspect ratio.” Where is the reframing potential? “Red guys shoot on lenses that provide for a 1.3:1 to supply an appropriate 2.35:1.”
    We all say, “Sounds like a great day for the history books!!!”

  14. FS100 it is then … until the 4k Canon DSLR appears 🙂

    Really look forward to your thoughts once you get a chance to use either of these. Interesting times though! Scarlet is a huge amount of camera for a modest amount of money (… relatively speaking of course).

  15. Unfortunately, I find both of the new cameras announced today remarkably uninteresting. The reality, for me, is that the improvement these cameras provide is insignificant when you compare the cost to the DSLR’s on the market today. I think until these cameras (C300, F3, Scarlet) get under $10k, we’re not going to see any kind of a mass market shift to them.

  16. All great announcements but, my goodness, the amount of people wondering if their FS100 (or whatever) is obsolete makes me feel a bit out-of-date, as I can only afford to shoot on my 550D! What I wouldn’t give for a 5D! I recently ploughed £1,500 from a writing job into a bunch of accessories, rather than a new body. Was I wrong? Given my clients rarely break four figure budgets, plus the fact that my employer doesn’t pay for our equipment, Philip’s last statement is probably the truest thing said all day.

  17. I shoot a lot of corporate and, of late, a lot of ‘events’ involving the England Cricket Team “meeting the fans for the day” etc.
    There is no time for critical focus pretty shots as we have to cover actuality and be able to pivot on the point and respond to whatever is going on around us – but that is not to say we cannot capture the more ‘considered’ shot as well.

    For me the Canon XF305 is the one of choice (I want my archive to be at least 50Mbs) BUT running a second camera (maybe a 5D MkII or a Panny AG-AF101) which is gathering 1/4 the amount of footage.

    The result is PSC style packages with the added texture of the art shot. Client: green BIG TICK.

    The new Canon C300 is a very interesting camera and I’m pleased Canon is embracing the ‘cinema’ world – we are always going to pay more for kit which captures more information, higher resolutions etc – but you just need to ask is it what you’re delivery requires. I know I have this big kid in me that drools over new products and then lies to me that it wasn’t the him in me buying it – it was an absolute business necessity. I would like to know the prices on those lenses though…

    Oh and well done to Engadget for their microblog of the event … kept me highly entertained!

  18. I think you are being far too kind or naive when you suggest the term “concept” means only that the camera won’t be out for a while. Traditionally the term “concept” means that something (whether car or camera) NEVER sees the light of day in its envisaged form. “Concept” is akin to “dream”. Of course we will get 4k SLRs someday – I just wouldn’t take this “concept” camera to be anything more than vapourware and a rough pointer to what will happen for all manufacturers eventually. This particular Canon DSLR camera can only be operated by Unicorns.

  19. I was already sold to Scarlet with its 2/3″ sensor and fixed lense… Now I’m a bit disapointed. It makes it a better camera, no doubt, but a more expansive one too ! And I’ve lost the ability to shoot 120 fps for 3K.
    Anyway, still will be a great camera.

    I’m not so sure C300 is priced well but we’ll see what happens in the near future.
    Last night was an epic night… or a scarlet night… Or…. (Sorry for the pun !)

  20. Not a good day: C300 it’s totally out of price range for DSLR users, Scarlet same story plus reliability issues expected. FS100 could be the best camera around but the lack of ND filters just doesn’t makes me go through with it.
    The only alternative is still Panny AF101 plus the beautiful Zuiko 14-35 F2.0.
    So… DSLR still rules, 60D + external recorder and a hope that panasonic comes up with something better.

          1. Indeed, I was referring to EF glass on the FS100.

            But now Birger has come up with a very elegant mount that shows the aperture on-screen in the camera and uses buttons up/down to change the aperture on the mount.

  21. With all this information I’m more and more thinking about leaving Canon and start following Red a hole lot more.

    Seems to me that Canon is constantly stripping the capabilities which is so sad. The things what most video guys want are clearly not there with the purpose to buy a new cam next year and so on. (I know thats how the economy works but still it sucks. you can’t upgrade anything)

    I’ll keep my Canon 60D’s for the moment but also save some money to get me into the Red family. I hope they’ll show me a nice big welcome 🙂

  22. Good morning, Philip. how’s life?
    Judging from the Laforet’s footage…I really do not like the image quality. It resembles the old HDV Canon flagships. Full of micro jello effects here and there and…Goodness…Look at 0.38-0:40…Look at the car…Look at the car…They improved nothing. The 5D mark II has still a better esthetic. HANDS DOWN. Am I the only one noticing all this? Plus everything looks washed out and the white balance is horrible…1) Washed out footage 2) Bad White balance 3) Aliasing still noticeable 3) Discrete Dynamic range 4) Surreal price. Canon, are you reading this? I feel bad for Scorsese and I’m only hoping you release the 5D mark III to compete with the new Scarlet. What’s your take? Just judging from Laforet’s video….

    1. I have the same opinion after watching the video. I didn’t like the looks which seemed quite video-y sometimes, and on high-contrast scenes there’s alot of noise in the shadows. I didn’t like how highlight clipped either. This must all be due to the 8bit sampling and 50Mbps. Canon should have implemented dual SDI with uncompressed RBG like the F3, specially at the $20k price tag! The S-Log F3 has 2-3 more stops and looks stunning, not just with a Gemini but also with a cheap KiPro.
      So far I think the F3 is a much better investment, and it can also do run&gun unlike the C300 (with zoom/AF assisted video lenses).

        1. This is exactly what I thought…At the beginning…nevertheless even compressed the 5D mark II files shine…Anyway, I mean, both “Reverie” and “Nocturne” with all the possible compression annihilate the Laforet’s C300 short movie. No?

          1. No. You need to have your eyes checked. C300 image is far superior to the 5d. FAR superior. It isn’t “videoy”, and has 8 bit for a reason. Study to show thyselves approved…STUDY.

    2. Whoa? I find the Laforet piece stunning and beyond pretty much anything I ever saw below the Alexa/Red cameras. It was shot in the desert. Of course there are big issues, but the cam handels it pretty well IMO.

    3. I looked at the car at 0:38-0:40 and didn’t notice anything wrong (1080p version). Perhaps you didn’t play it in full resolution? That will create artificial aliasing not present in full screen 1080.

  23. Totally gutted, was hopping for a £5k – £7K FS100 equivalent. So glad to hear you mentioned this in your post Philip. Looks like we’ll still be on HDSLR for now. However for the £12K price tag you do get all the bells and whistles. I think we should all remember that it’s about the Story not the camera! Think I will wait for the 5d MKIII.

  24. Looking forward to these 4k is the next big thing this is huge.

    I’ll go canon over red with canon glass, red is great but my Oakley sunglasses always break. Canon is Apple

  25. November 3rd had to be a “revolutionary day”, but I think hardly anything has changed.

    DSLR shooters are left cold without anything they can truly afford, as the 1DX is too expensive and mostly designed for PJs. What’s worse is that an hypothetic 5Dmk3 appears to be at the very least still half a year away.

    The new Canon C300 and The Scarlet are just a direct response to Sony’s popular F3 at roughly the same price points. The F3 with S-Log is STUNNING for the price and it will gain another stop with the new firmware. With Canon pricing the C300 at $20k (the price of a F3+S-Log+KiPro mini) I hardly see how it can compete, being stuck at 8bit@50Mbps and lacking Dual SDI with uncompressed RGB.

    The Scarlet might dent some of the F3 sales IF ONLY it proves itself to be reliable. I truly hope RED has learnt the lesson and after the time taken to develop the Scarlet, they have finally built a 100% stable camera.

    Anyway the Camera Universe remains unchanged at November 4rd. No new game changer, neither from the features perspective nor from price. Key players still remain (to ME)

    -ALEXA
    -F3+SLog
    -5D2

    at their respective price points.

      1. i dont´hope for jvc 🙂

        sony could beat them all, simply by announcing a canon-mount-version of the f3.

        most people praise the scarlet as the winner here, but you loose a lot of the agility, that you are used to, as a dslr- or camcordershooter. filesize and cropshifts are big sacrifices for benefits, that most people really don´t need for their jobs (be honest: who works for cinema here? most people will end up with 1080p anyway.)

        time is the most important part. you loose moments in the field and you loose energy and takes on set.

        and scarlet is modular, so you end up with 20k – and the reliability… it can cost you more than that.

        for an epic owner, it makes perfect sense. you have the parts and get a cheaper b- and backupcamera. you already have the modular-stuff – 2 angles with high quality – simple to cut together – reliabilityissue minimised – slowmotion… philip has to be a happy man today!

        … for my part, my iphone 4s will be the much bigger thing to me, because it will mean a massive boost in practice and creativity… still waiting for it 🙁

  26. Did I miss something, So what happened to the fixed lens Scarlet for around $6000? I did see a photo on the web with them lined up for shipping and video of people running around testing the fix lens red baby so that was all just untrue.

    Must admit I’m a bit disappointed, I’m sure both these new cameras are great but was hoping for something in the price range of the FS100 or the AF101 and have been holding off deciding between the two until the announcement.

    I don’t blame canon that much there still selling 5Dm2, 7D ect buy the bucket load so why kill the golden goose. I just seen the EF c300 at 12,000 pounds on Creative videos website that’s not to bad, but at this moment in time just to much to run to.

    1. Agreed, they have been walking around with the fixed lens for awhile. To me the announcement was a big let down. I have a feeling that the technology they have is not truly proven because of this alone. Why carry around a model and show it to a “select” few then never offer it. When scarlet was first announced a few years ago I had signed up on Reds web site for updates. Never got them. I will no longer support Red.

    1. I think hdrx is still useful since you can use it on 3k and 1080p. And i think when the sensir is windowed to that point, it actts more like a 2/3 sensor, which a certain consuner segment will really like.

  27. I think $20,000 for the C300 isn’t necessarily bad value (assuming the camera is as good as it looks). Put it in context – you don’t have to buy half the additional stuff that’s needed to make the 5d functional, it’s less than half the cost of an Alexa and compared with other broadcast options, like a Sony XDCAM 800 (£30k), it looks a pretty reasonable price.

    On the LaForet short the quality definitely looks a step up from the 5d MkII – you can really notice this on the making of video when they intercut from the making of shots to the shots from the film (I know probably had a very different grade, were using PL lenses etc etc, but still…)

    I just wish they’d charge $30k for it and improve what looks like some very plasticy build quality (my 5d mkII is still the cheapest and most rugged “video” camera I have owned!) and put a decent viewfinder on it. Haven’t heard anyone mention anything about the viewfinder yet, but the making of Mobius has a screen shot of the camera with it taped up, so I suppose we can safely assume it’s shit – a la the F3’s pointless viewfinder.

    1. I agree about the importance of the viewfinder. For me the viewfinder, not an LCD is the window to the cameraman’s world. For me it’s like putting on a diving mask and snorkling – the whole world is in the viewfinder and for me that does not come from standing back staring at a screen. Looks like a loupe attached to the LCD might be in the right spot to at least do some kind of shoulder work – but for $20K who wants more add-ons?

  28. Okay, here’s my take on this. After a night with little or no sleep, I think the Canon route is still the better option, regardless of the very (and I repeat VERY) attractive specs that RED offers. Here’s why:

    – Canon is worldwide / RED isn’t
    Service is a deciding factor for me. If you spend 10k+ on an A-Camera and you depend on for your craft, you want to make sure you get excellent service when it breaks down (it happens). Since I’m based in the Netherlands, this means I would have to send it in to the UK or perhaps USA for service – probably without the option of replacement bodies.

    – Canon offer 1080p now, but 4K in the future
    I need a camera yesterday with XLR inputs, great low-light performance and virtually no rolling shutter/moire issues. Basically, all the stuff I don’t get on current breed of DSLRs, which, by the way, have served me well over the past few years. Most of my clients (I make productions for online mainly) are happy with 720p final resolution, and I expect this to remain so for at least the next year or so. Maybe they’ll want 1080p, but then the C300 delivers. Also, by that time the new 4K DSLR will be here, which could serve as a replacement B-Camera.

    – FS100/F3 are not option (yet)
    I am heavily invested in Canon glass, all EF mount. Unless MTF/Birger come up with a mount w/o a breakout box, I can’t shoot with the FS100/F3 on anything other than a tripod. It sure is a source of unbalance on a Glidecam and cumbersome on a held-hand rig or a monopod (the latter which I shoot a lot with). MTF should include an aperture control ring on the mount itself. No, it won’t be as smooth as manual control (it will click at 1/3 increment stops as does the camera), but you have no separate device dangling below your lens.

    That being said, I was disappointed by the price range. So I still have some thinking to do.

    1. Just to let you know, you can buy REDs through Marcotech in Darmstad in Germany (just near Frankfurt) and they do service too, under European Warranty. Not really close, but easier to get to than the UK!

      Although the sales guy there did tell me that RED has released info to their resellers today stating that the Scarlett will deliver in June ’12, if you order now! That’s one popular camera 🙂

      groeten

  29. At 4:16 on the Whitman video we see an EF lens on what I assume is the same camera they used the Cine lens on. That suggests the Cine lens is EF as well or that one can use both EF and PL on the same camera? Methinks the former as the EF version is released in January while the PL in March. No sense having two releases if there is an interchangeable mount.

  30. For me, Laforet’s movie is not amazing at all, given the many many bucks that this production costs. The visuals are nice, but the story is simple. He could have spent some more dollars in a good story-teller. I love simple, good ideas: something a few can have with a low budget, like Mr. Bloom. Let’s stop this freaking gear obsession and start filming good stuff!

    1. I’m not sure there is any point criticising the film demo-ing the ‘use’ of the camera. The video was compressed and on the internet – so it will wash out and look poor. I thought it looked fine and was well made – to critisis it in the context of this camera release just appears as jealousy or guised web hate.

      Please stoppit. Stoppit right now.

      And its “Mr. Laforet” to you!

  31. All of that is a joke !
    They pre-anounced the scarlet for about 6k$ ans now officially 14k$ !
    The new canon for 20k$
    This gear is for big industries not for independent filmakers.
    I think 5d will stay in place again if they don’t make affordable cameras …

  32. The CVP price is 16.5 but in UK pounds not dollars, including VAT. And their dollar price is over $22,000. So MORE than the list price, but then CVP have always been a bit pricey..!

      1. Well, we are not going to get screwed anymore…I have the feeling nobody here is going to invest in the C300. I personally own a 1D mark IV and a 5D mark II and I’m very happy with these two cameras. Considered the quality they reach they are a super bargain. The C300, Canon I apologize, sounds like a rip off for that price range.
        My suggestion for Philip:
        why don’t you write an article talking about PRICES? The industry should pay more attention, because after the HDLR revolution things are different.
        If you write a well structured article, an open letter to the industry, I believe this is going to create a huge impact.

        Who agrees?

        1. absolute bullshit! wake up. things have a price and the dslr-revolution is a revolution of creativ possibilities and not about prices.

          with a dslr, you spend much more then you would have had for the same codec, atefacts and sound on a consumer-camcorder, but you have a selectiv focus and low-light performance.

  33. Glad to see RED finally realised that a 2/3 inch chip and a fixed lens is a dope idea. Thanks Philip for reinterating that the Scarlet has a crop factor. Is the difference between 4K and 2K on the Epic/Scarlet x2?
    I agree that broadcasters will lap up the Canon C300. 2K is clearly a broadcast aquisition standard while right now 4K is more suited to Cinema requirements. Funny – I think Canon got that a bit wrong – or are they promising a 4K upgrade to match their new lenses?
    The F3 users may have buyers remorse and a huge chunk of the Indy community must be disappointed by the high price point. So far from Canon, only the 1DX fills the price gap. I was hoping the C300 would be 50Mb/s 4:2:2 for around the same price as the XF305.

  34. Hello,
    On the Scarlet, if the autofocus works with conon lens do you think the IS does as well?
    Also for croping the lens factor when you shoot at 2K would be shooting at 4K + using a lower redcode preset like 10.1 be a solution for using fully the glass and not being to heavy on computer processing?

  35. Cool cameras, but man, disappointing price points for a solo guy like me with a small budget. The development DSLR and the 5D3 is the only glimmer of hope… you’d think after 3 years, Canon would at least offer modest improvements to the 5D2 and keep it within the same price range. A MacBook Pro costs about the same today as a MacBook Pro from 3 years ago… but I get a heck of a lot more today.

  36. If one can shoot uncompressed 24P 4:4:4 with a Convergent Gemini (.dpx) or CineDeck (.mov) on the C300, that’ll at least justify the $20K price tag. Otherwise, I’d go with the Scarlet, or just stick with an AF100 (again, with a CineDeck).

  37. Canon has finally got it’s act together with the delivery a large sensor format HD camera, but missed an opportunity. The XF305 didn’t really do it for me when it was released in the HD Video market. But as mentioned releasing $20k camera at price point into a market saturated with lower cost alternatives could prove foolhardy.

    Whilst Canon main strength is lens development, it may have better to look at how RED entered this film, HD market at the $20K price point back in 2006. RED was not an established brand or player but managed to get itself there on a 4K offering, with this new Canon offering it will be interesting to see if this becomes more of a hire facility camera as opposed to personal or production company purchase unlike it’s EOS DSLR range.

  38. Thanks for the update Phil! The Canon looks nice.. but too pricy for my one-man band biz. and the RED.. (sigh).. WTF RED? you did it to us again with that damn Scarlet camera!!! You paraded the fixed lens Scarlet around the consumer electronic shows.. let folks hold it.. pretent to shoot with it.. but with the exception of a few seconds of a lion eating a chicken. no video! but you still had out attention with this seemingly too good to be true camera all set up to shoot right out of the box! Then you had us waiting with bated breath as you proudly announced the price in the $5-6K range! Then the very strange announcement is made last night (website down most of the night) The promised and awaited Scarlet.. the camera that was going to put a real RED cinema camera in the little guys hands.. is now really just an Epic jr. rigged up to actually be usable is $14K..
    RED you suck.

    Now back to REAL cameras… Sony, Panasonic, Canon.. let’s see you what got!

  39. why oh why hasn’t Canon decided to release a 5d MK3?
    why don’t they understand there are so many of us out there who want something more accessible for indie productions, using our L lenses?

    a proper camcorder with the same image quality of the 5D, with stabilisation, no time limit, 50/60p etc etc

    this was called a “global historic event”? what? no more wars? cough cough

  40. Thank’s Philip for youre objective opinion.
    C300 is not the camera we wait for indies, and i’m shure the industry of cinema doesnt need this caméra.
    Canon you fail with these Big announcement.

  41. Wow, people mystify me.

    The idea that a 20K, 1080p camera with slow mo only in 720p??? (sweet god) was not blown away by the release of Scarlet today is just ludicrous.

    I’m an independent Film maker. And I will definitely be buying and or renting Scarlets.

    Better resolution. Better frame rates. Better price point.

    And even more importantly RAW = far superior possibilities in post.

    Do people realise this is a cam you will be able to screen on an IMAX if you want to?

    Different tools for different jobs. Sure. But this is a 14K camera that can just happen to do the different job of previously only possible with your 50K plus camera’s like Philip’s Epic. Scarlet bridges that incredible great divide. For 14K – it is quite simply incredible. We have never had a tool like this at this price point before people, ever.

    Cons – reliability fears, back order concerns, and we have to move or change lenses if we want to keep the same frame when we shoot slow mo.

    All cameras are of course just tools. But some tools are just plain better than others and offer greater possibilities.

    Scarlet X is clearly the most exciting camera ever release sub 50K.
    It is the new Indie dream cam and many will undoubtedly prove it.

    I’m just a nobody Indie film maker from regional Australia, but I’m disappointed that this incredible release is not getting anywhere near the accolades it deserves on here Philip. I have always thought you as a wonderful leader in this industry. But I found your blog toned to be distinctly negative in regard to the Scarlet release and I’m disappointed that someone who is usually such an enthusiast, can’t even seem to muster up anywhere near the level of enthusiasm for a quite incredible release, as they can for autographed camera sliders or any number of other releases.

    Kind Regards,

    Lliam

    1. Your last paragraph was completely out of order mate. Seriously.

      Nothing wrong with being cautious. I bought a 58k camera (Epic) and two out of two gigs it failed on me. So sorry being cautious. Better than tell everyone to go and buy an untested camera. Sheesh

      1. Totally out of order I agree. I am never more amazed at people rushing to make rash judgements about cameras purely over a list of specs and some compressed video footage on the internet.
        Phillip is right throwing caution with RED. I was involved in a major film this year on Epics and all of them on both units had to be returned back to RED before the film even started…
        What people should take notice of is the opinions of people who have not only used these cameras but have seen real footage screened at the highest possible level. Has noone watched the behind the scenes videos on Canon’s website for example…?
        The Canon C300 may be “only” 4:2:2, but it might just be that the pure RGB colour data from which that 4:2:2 is derived, is way way better than the interpolated and debayered mess that most other cameras work from to produce say 4:4:4. And that also has a baring on the resolution of the image. So without seeing footage first hand projected on a 50′ screen, specs are not everything.
        The Canon may be amazing despite the specs, but so might the Scarlet and RED might have solved all their Epic problems. Both might be mediocre. But please to judge until youve actually seen footage first hand.
        You might just make an expensive mistake

      2. I’m a fan of what you give to people everywhere. So I don’t like to have pissed you off Philip, and I’m genuinely sorry that I offended you.

        There just seemed to me to be no positivity in your blog about the Scarlet. And it just genuinely, really, really surprised me. It sounded like you were perhaps still a bit pissed off for what you had experienced with the Epic. I have no issue with counselling caution, or I would have stated so. And FWIW, I think the couple of lines you’ve since added, sincerely do make a critical difference.

        Having followed specs for years, scarlet “on paper” certainly seemed a jaw dropping revelation to the Indie world to me. And I was excited. So I came to your blog palms itching and really looking forward to the enthusiasm of yours that I so admire. That was a mistake, I should not have expected you to feel similarly. I hope you accept my apology for that. Maybe it will prove to be the incredible revelation I think it can be. Maybe it won’t. Time will tell.

        And though I’m now the unlikeable guy in the room, still wanted to say. Thanks anyway, as I meant what I said when I felt your were a wonderful leader in the industry.

        Best

        Lliam

        1. Liam

          I stand by my thoughts. They are balanced and I simply do not go wow wow wow when a camera is announced with nice specs. It’s a dumbed down Epic not a new camera which is what I wanted. I am sad at the loss of the Scarlet. Yes what we have now is nice but a different beast altogether. I waned a lighter 3k touting 120fps camera. We no longer have that.

          and it will cost a lot of money to make it a shooting proposition and that is before we get into the workflow issues and the need for things like Red Rocket. I preach caution and that is essential when investing what will be close to $20k to make it a workable shooting proposition.

          When I am genuinely enthusiastic about something then you hear it and it is not JUST going to be about my dolly. That was out of order

          Thanks.

          1. Hey Philip, I own your dolly – cool product. In the future I would ask you to develop a super portable, very light weight version for travel. Maybe a 48″ that’s packs as small as 24″ and weighs less than 3 kilos with leveling plate

      3. I follow Lliam on REDuser and will say his above post was maybe a bit off and probably misunderstood. He is a thoughtful and intelligent gent that has passion and opinions that are usually well founded. I think maybe he, like me, look to you Philip to push the industry in developing better products that allow us non-Hollywood guys have top tier tools in order to create our art.

        RED has had its problems no doubt there. That being clearly stated, they also have pushed the big Japanese/German companies into developing products that would have never seen the light of day without the competitive spark RED presents. Squint your eyes while looking at the C300 and you are looking at the Epic.

        I follow you because you are owned by no one. You are extremely honest and candid in your reviews. I appreciate you telling it like it is on the Epic fails since RED needs to hear the raw truth of how field equipment issues can be catastrophic to small operators. When you’re Peter Jackson and one of your 40 Epics go down it’s no big deal.

        For the overall health and future of the industry we all need to actively support companies like RED that push the envelope – even when they ship beta version products sometimes that blow up. For better or worse, RED looks to their users as a field QC department. I own a AF100/GH2 (based on your positive reviews) and like them, but am looking forward taking my art to a much higher level with the RED products I have on order. I go into RED ownership knowing that there will be bugs, rough edges and back orders – concerns I never have with my Panasonic or Canon products. I accept this since the result will be one I could never achieve with the current crop of safe, well tested and reliable Japanese products.

    2. Mr worthington. I shot lots of stuff with RED. Feature films and music videos. Because they made me. Very often a nightmare. Technical problems etc.. In my 15 year as a DP never had any problem with another brand camera. Coincidence??? I rather never shoot with a RED again. And thank god now there are better options. And the producers now start to understand.
      Best regards,
      Arie

  42. First of all, thank you Mr. Bloom for your time, effort, info, talent and the good humor you have put into this site for the last…4-5 years? You are an inspiration and you deserve an Oscar!

    Secondly, I have to agree with Liam. I’m not sure what some of you smoke or in what dream world you live, but many seem to have completely unrealistic expectations. The Red Scarlet is f***ing epic!! I’ve been in the business for the last 10 years and this is the most exciting piece of equipment I have ever seen.

    Yes, as Philip has pointed out there’s always the right camera for the right job, but if you are serious about making a living out of shooting things, the Scarlet has to be a camera to consider (amongst many others, of course). I’m just gobsmacked that for $14k you can buy such high end quality. When I first started a DigiBeta would set you back £30-40K!!! And it wasn’t good enough for theatre screening!! As Liam said, the Red Scarlet is good enough for IMAX.

    Anyways, after las night announcement I still feel like I’m in a dream and keep rubbing my eyes every time I check the Scarlet’s price tag. I know where my money is going and it will not be with Canon.

    Thank you again Mr Bloom,

    All the best,

    Marc.

    1. The Scarlet does look great but I have to tell people about the pitfalls! People don’t realise the work that is needed in post and the expensive accessories which are essential. Caution is way better than blind fan boy love.

      1. I absolutely agree with you. Besides, everything I have said is only ‘on paper’, as we haven’t seen any Scarlet footage yet. As you have pointed out (and I have actually experienced in the past) Red cameras tend to have issues (I guess they are a bit like having a Ferrari). I have always been quite sceptic about Red, but if the Scarlet happens to be reliable, it will be big.

        Kindest regards,

        Marc.

      2. I agree 100% with you Philip. I never want to shoot with a RED again!!!
        To many good other options around now. The Sony F65 really is a dream. To rent ofcourse. Allthough the price is very very interesting. Cheaper than a Alexa. Not that much more than a Epic.. And proper 4K. Do not get all those people getting hysterical about a new camera just through a few specs. Incredible. I go to a rental and test cameras and do all kind of post options. The only thing people here see is 4K as the magic word. Pfffft… Sell your Epic Philp!! Get a Sony F65, a proper Camera!! 😉

    2. Where exactly are you folks grabbing this “good enough for IMAX” talk? IMAX still has to do a DMR process on these films. You don’t just shoot on these cameras and throw them on the largest screens in the world. IMAX even does DMR for their digital screens which are significantly smaller. Everything is “good enough” for IMAX, once IMAX gets their mittens on it and works their magic.

  43. I want to gulp the kool-aid, but reliability is the issue with the Scarlet. A camera that malfunctions during a job is not a professional camera. You just know the Canon will work every time, but the Scarlet could have a year of firmware upgrades to correct any issues.

    You get what you pay for.

    PB has been very honest and open about the problems he’s having with his $58k Epic, and I expect the Scarlet to follow suit. I want to believe, but experience tells me to stand back and observe for a bit.

    I think Lliam and Mark should buy two Scarlets in order to double their amazingly non-tested experience with it. And, I love my Philip Bloom pocket dolly. Silky smooth, and works every time.

    Neither camera will help you build your second act.

    A tool is a tool is a tool.

    1. cheers sir. I just want to make people aware there are pitfalls! Be worse for me to be a fanboy and say sod the C300 and buy a Scarlet. It’s untested and I have not shot with it! I am honest and I am balanced.

  44. I have been thinking about the C300. So Canon put some video in the 5d mark2 as an afterthought, just for some news gathering and it is resounding success. For what it was, a photo camera that shoot video, it gave access to the large sensor cinema look to everyone. Now they have 3 years, decide and plan some dedicated video camera for this market they have created and they deliver a 8 bit 50 mbit, 60fps in 720p only, for an astounding $ 20 000. Apart from its sensor this camera has more or less the same processing than its XF line starting at $ 3 500.

    Now I do understand that it was effectively an accident the Canon 5D mark 2, because if they had anticipated it video success they would have sold it at a much higher price.

    I will be enjoying my hacked gh2. I find it hilarious now when I see my little $ 800 camera doing 176 mbit, how those companies are crippling their hardware. If a $ 800 body can do that, guess what those camera costing 10x 20x 30x can do.

    The last thing I would say is for everybody who are frustrated and waiting for an upgrade, try the hacked gh2, it is an only $ 800 that you can adapt most lens. No moire, aliasing, very very high resolution, true hd monitoring and autofocus with 4/3 lens. The crop factor is 1.8 in video recording, not that much different from the Canon, I am saying that from a 7D user.

    1. The one thing I will say is I would never use hacked equipment on a professional job. The GH2 is a great camera in it’s own right, but I’ve seen people use them hacked and have the camera totally fail, and they’ll lose the day. Sometimes, it’s not worth the risk.

      Personally, I love my HVX200. It still gets me through shoots, it’s quite the workhorse, and while I probably won’t sell it, I will be upgrading to the AF-100 because I have wanted that large sensor capability and interchangeable lenses. I think that a real camera would be a better investment. One you don’t have to hack.

    2. The idea sounds good but I feel somewhat paranoid about using a hacked camera with a file fault at the beginning of each take. Otherwise it is amazing.

      One thing I’m wondering about that no one has seen to mention, (Phil you may know the answer to this) the footage from the Mobius film was transferred to film, that’s right to film! It was projected as film at the Canon opening through an actual cinema film projector. Although a little deceptive on Canon’s behalf, that’s all well and fine as it was used as a cinema camera, but is the footage we are viewing on VIMEO the film transferred footage or the direct digital file form the edit master.

      I personally felt the image quality looked awesome, sure you can always pick it but as an overall filmic look it really had it, much better than a standard RED (can’t comment on EPIC) , better than anything I’ve seen, but was it film or video?

      Also the RED is apparently a marketing hype that it’s true 4K, it’s actually 2K, and perhaps if you blow up the Canon image to 4K it outperforms the RED as the RED is interpolated. A lot of tests have to be done. I’m half sold on the Canon, but the price is such a big let down. But was it video or film, that I need to know.

      Joel.

    3. I’ll echo the comments on the GH2 – the more I look at the C300 and the Scarlet, the better my GH2 looks – especially given the vast difference in price.

      As a former 7D owner, I can say that my two GH2s addressed all my 7D issues – moire, aliasing, resolution, recording limits – and all of this before I hacked them. Now, with the hack, 176Mbps AVC intra, when I choose, gives me a heck of a camera for $800.

      I was excited for Scarlet – when it was 3K for $3K. I am excited to see the 5D MK3 when it comes out. IF I have the need for a rental, I could get excited about a few weeks with the C300.

      But the market for sub-$3000 DSLR-style, large sensor cameras is currently dominated, IMHO, by the GH2. And increasingly, it looks like it will be, until the GH3 is released, anyway.

  45. With all the “new” cameras, my upgrade path from a 7D DSLR will be the Panasonic AF100, when Berger gets their mount working with remote focusing and stabilization enabled in my EF-S lens! That is a feature I’m not giving up, when trading up!

    $5~6K is a reasonable “step up” $15~20k is not. Way out of my price range for the kind of work I’m doing.

    Malcolm

  46. Philip, thank for posting your thoughts about the Epic. Before I read your post I had no idea the Epic had playback issues. Meaning, no playback as of yet. If the Scarlet had this fault (which they say it wont) I would not be interested.

    I love the 5d, but I feel a little betrayed by Canon. I feel like they got there foot in the door of Hollywood with the 5d mkII, and the hard work of people like yourself, then they left us out on the front step waiting.

  47. All I can say to Canon is, “US$20K for those specs? Are you guys #$*&!* crazy?” I can’t wrap my brain around who they expect to adopt the thing. One could buy 2 AF100s and a SICK assortment of glass for that price. And as far as XLR inputs go… who cares anymore? Since Pluraleyes hit the market, almost all the folks I know have gone dual-system. I mean, I love Canon, and I love Panny, but none of their cameras will ever sound as good as an SD 702T, so why even bother? Especially now that synching sound is a matter of pushing “go” on Pluraleyes.
    Just so underwhelmed at these announcements….
    Personally, I think Ikonoskop’s A-cam dII is more intersting than either of these.
    And dollar for dollar, I’ll just keep on with my 7D and CP.2s until one of these manufacturers does something actually disruptive again.

  48. One thing about future proof, the future hasnt arrived, so yes shoot with what you have, because the future arrives with a lot of improvements, wich means a lot more than justa having those 4k on your actual stuff.

  49. Hi Sir

    I sent you earlier email and this is my 2nd email to you and requesting you about which camera shell I buy? for 1080p

    Panasonic AG-AF100 or Sony FS100?

    As now clear that canon is out of my range 20k is to much. so I am looking to have for now under 5k Panasonic or Sony then later on I will go with Scarlet X.

    SO Please advise me. thank you.

    regards
    Umar

  50. All this whining about this camera’s pitfalls and that camera’s pitfalls and “$20k this is and that” is ludacris for something that DIDN’T EVEN EXIST 3-4 YEARS AGO reminds me of the great Louis C.K. sketch from “Hilarious” (shot on Red) about “white people problems”. Watch it, you’ll pee your pants.

    This is the most exciting time in the history of the universe (other than when motion picture cameras were developed) for someone who wants to capture motion and share it with their friends. And guess what, two or three years from now, we’ll find ourselves in the same shoes again. Good work Philip on keeping it real and expressing your opinion as well as helping champion this whole indy DSLR everyone’s a filmmaker movement. You and some of the other filmmaker/blogger types have put a lot of hard work and dedication into making your passion your life, and that’s something not a lot of people can say.

    I’ll take two Canon’s please, with a side of Scarlet and a dash of GoPro…

  51. Hi Philip,
    I just have a question and I hope someone can help me with it… I work a lot with sports and i travel all the time… I am thinking about getting the RED Scarlet X but there is one thing i want to know.. Like I travel lots I mostly edit my work on my mac book pro 15’inch 2ghz quad core duo I7… with my current cameras it works fine but how much more work would it be to work on RED RAW files on my laptop? I meen what will it take me to just shot on the RED scarlet and start editing on FCP7 after?

    Cheers!
    Forest

    1. This is would put your laptop to a halting stop. The thing about using laptops for editing is that you have a lot of limitations. Especially if you start getting into color correction or things like that. The problem with Mac Books also is that they are currently have heating issues with the i7 processor because they are still so bent on making the darn things as thin as possible so you don’t get proper cooling. I know Mac hardware is made tough and so forth and they are sleek, but for portable editing I would have gone with an HP laptop workstation which will cost you the same amount of $$$ as the Mac Book, but you get more power, better cooling, which results in the ability to have a more stable, portable editing station. However, if this is only meant to ‘check’ footage, and not truly do full blown editing then you are in the clear. Do you ever have hang ups or performance issues on your Mac Book? Thanks and this was just a bit of an FYI, these issues are something i have to help customers with all the time.

  52. Why didn’t Red just stick with the earlier design with Interchangeable lenses and 3K? It has a Resolution limit which makes the Epic Better, but still offers features that people want like 1-120p, HDRx, 16 bit Color, Red RAW and made it a little cheaper? why 4K with 1-25p, with all these odd limitations. They say they don’t like 1080p but the limit the camera in such a way that 1080p is all film makers will really use?

  53. All that hype for overpriced products that don’t even meet our needs. Who are these companies listening to? 1080p for $20k are you serious? RED is the better option but even they can’t get quite right. Not to mention the bugs in the Epic, im not prepared to buy one just yet. And to find out the camera we were all waiting for from Canon is only a concept camera that’s probably years away? A 4k cinematic DSLR is what we want and all we got is a photo of one. What a disappointment Canon. You’re just not listening.

  54. I think the Scarlet looks great. Red is a high-end company. This tells us we can have S35 4k for under $10. I wonder what Panasonic can give us? I think 1080p 60frames should be standard. Canon needs to fix that fast. I’m sure when the Gh-3 comes out next year it will support 1080p 60

  55. The more I think about the Nov 3rd announcements the more I reflect on how fortunate we’ve been to have such powerful film making tools under $2,500. You can pick up a GH2 or a 60D or a Sony NEX5N for under a grand.
    These film making tools are somehow special beyond the accessible price point. Is it the size? I can’t put my finger on it. As objects unto themselves somehow these cameras evoke some kind of unique quality that seems missing from the latest lineup. It’s like getting away with something that you shouldn’t. I don’t own a GH2 but it is kind of remarkable and fun to know that such a camera can produce such great pictures. The spirit of good quality film making for the masses is alive and well in DSLR’s but somehow not in 4K for $14K or 2K for $20K. Of course I could be wrong – as I haven’t shot with a RED Scarlet.

    1. The GH2 is magnificent and more with the hack. I have recorded stuff that looks as good on screen as any camera. You don’t have the flexibility that RED or the Canon will offer in post but for under $1k its a magical piece of equipment.

  56. Thank you, Philip, for being the voice of reason.

    These releases are welcome new additions to the toolbox, but there
    is always the right tool for the job.

    It amazes me how passionate some people get about the tool itself, instead
    of the work/film/art that it is used to create.

    Call me crazy…

  57. Seems to me that Panasonic could steal some of these Big Boys’ thunder by upping the bit rate on the AF101, and offering 25p on the GH2. Relatively inexpensive for them, but big impact in the news.

    And their products out there making great films.

  58. What this announcement really fortifies is the truth of those people (like Bloom) who spread the gospel of – “Put your money into your glass”.

    Whether I get a C300, a Scarlet, a 1DX or just stick with my 60D, the Canon and Carl Zeiss EF lenses I’ve bought will continue to give me great images out of whatever camera I stick them on.

  59. how many did canon pay you philip for closing your eyes and sayin that scarlet X isnt the real rocker these times?

    thats the same kind of sh… that payed vincent laforet sayed.

    omg!

    i do not trust some of these well payed maketing guys.

    8bit HD vs. 12bit 4k thats simple, thats a fact.

    1. Dear troll

      If you are going to right a silly comment then at least try and read the blog post fist and get your facts right. I know living in your mother’s basement for the past 40 years has had a strange effect on you so I thoroughly recommend getting fresh air and socialising with people in real life!! You may un-troll yourself!

      Cheers!

      1. guess the blog leaded him to buy a 5dmkII two years ago and he is depressed till the end of the world, because the brick didn´t do the magic for him.

        go ahead troll, don´t read the article again. just buy the thing and make your homevideos shine like a unicornsmile!

  60. Why are they charging 20k for a camera that shoots 1080p with an 8bit 422 50mbps codec? What are they thinking? It’s misleading to even call it a cinema camera imo. 1080p is enough (4K is really not worth it for most people), but that codec is unacceptable at this price point. The lack of slowmo is the final nail in the coffin. This would have been a great camera for around 8-10K. But if they think they can waltz into this industry, and create a product that appeals to the high end professional demographic, and believe they can get away with overpricing because their name is Canon, they are sorely mistaken.

    The Red Scarlet is going to steal the majority of sales from this product because it simply delivers more for half the price. No, I’m not a Red fan boy, I used to think negatively of Red a few years ago… but I’m just telling it like it is. Red stepped up, Canon did not.

    I’m very interested in seeing how well this thing sells, but I’m predicting that it will be considered a failure in a year and Canon… which will hopefully motivate Canon to release a good value cinema camera in 2012-2013.

  61. Great write up, Philip. Thank you for the overview on these cameras. I must say the Scarlet looks very appealing to me as a “longtime” Canon DSLR user.

    I’m concerned about the workflow, however. Does anyone know a good place to get educated on what post is like with Red?

    Thanks!

  62. I have a question for you Philip. First as far as these two wonderful camera’s which i cannot afford, my assumption is that they would hold up well when processed for theatrical projection.

    I myself aspire to the fs100 or at the very least the gh2 (for their clean hdmi)….rambling here i guess my question is for mainstream theatrical release, what is the process?? and can cams like gh2, 5dII, fs100 and so on hold up??…….as we know seeing the video on our computer is much different than a big screen.

    My process would be to convert h264 to cineform 4:2:2 or would i need to record to something like the ninja for such projects?

    Cause i don’t really see a big difference between fs100 native files and the ninja’s.

    sorry guess that’s a few questions…lol

    Your input here would be greatly appreciated.

  63. Phil, I used to correspond with you when you were just doing tests on the New Mexico deserts with things like HV20’s. Times when this blog seemed a little less stressed out.
    I’m still incredibly grateful for the effort you put into this blog and how you haven’t completely just closed up shop thanks to the nuttiness and wild passions over what are, basically, tech specs and rumors (remember when the F3K was going to be around 50K and never waiver in prize? What happened to that swift rumor?). Folks, relax.
    Whether you have an iphone camera, or a panavision 3 ton truck in your backyard, all this bickering and tech taddle will get you nowhere until you’re holding on to the camera (s). Read. Enjoy the fact that you HAVE a forum to come and exchange ideas. That Phil puts up with the million and one questions when he really doesn’t have to; that we’re all in the same struggle and wanting to do one simple thing, so put the guns down – instead go tell a story.

    Write something. When you’re done, re-write it. When you think it’s the best you can do, shoot it. Cut it. Share it. Do it again. Come back here, learn, share, learn some more, do it again. Save me/us from all the bad movies coming out of the blockbuster studio system and tell something so good it seeps to the top on story alone.

    Scarlett or C300 specs AREN’T going to change the fact that we are just consumers of these products. So treat the makers exactly for what these companies are, providers – not your buds who screwed you out of a 4:4:4 ratio.

    The only bias and loose passion I WILL give to these announcements is that it took RED’s innovation (and really all the lens adapter companies) to light a fire under the industry’s butt to get moving and create better cameras that handled something other than broadcast glass. We should have been having these products a lot earlier; at least by 2008, specially from folks like Canon.

    Godspeed all. Philip, hang in there and get an industrial bottle of aspirin.

  64. just bought a 7d with 5 canon lenses and all accessories… Happy with it… completing the script now and going to make the film in feb 2011. That’s all!!!

  65. I’ve come to read Philip’s posts because he just tells it like it is. It’s the honesty without the ego of corporate alliance. Thanks Philip. Thanks for being the source I (WE) can trust. From the scouring of all the blogs from yesterdays announcements, the only thing I come away with that RED did was pick fights. They picked them with Canon, and most forum posts are picking fights between each other.
    Both cameras are cool. Done…Both will cost you $20,000
    But here is what separates Philip as a source. I’ve seen shorts or footage out of him from nearly every camera released in the last year and beyond. 5dmk2, 7d, T2i, 60d, gh1, gh2, af100, fs100, F3, alexa, Red epic. But only a week or so ago, he goes and shoots a creative short on the Sony NEX5n. A guy that owns all the cameras above (minus Alexa), even the almighty RED EPIC, shoots a short with a Best Buy Camera, and I liked it.
    Thanks to Philip! Thanks for staying grounded and honest (funny too boot as well). You’re real, not a sell out.
    A note on the Scarlet though. 3K for 3K, fail. Then the fixed 2/3s, fail. So I look at this and see basically an Epic, painted differently, but looks identical in size, but with less features than Epic, and called Scarlet. FAIL! Why, they abandoned a 3 year project to repackage a camera with less features to compete with Canon. Thats all it is. You’re still stuck spending $20,000 for camera, storage, red rocket (like you’re not gonna buy one if you invest in red) and all sorts of RED stuff. It’s an Epic body with crippled firmware. I feel sorry for the owners of Epic-M. Oooops, sorry Phillip. So, what is the resale value of an Epic-M now? Is it Epic-X value? ALl this talk about being ripped off from Canon due to a *MSRP of $20,000 for the C300? (I’m going with retail of $15,000). In a matter of months, RED had devalued their flagship Epic-M to repackage it and call it Scarlet. They failed to release the camera they have talked about for 3 years. It was like a month ago that they were walking show floors with a working 2/3s Scarlet. A month! They couldn;t deliver so they scaled back a developed product. Fishy….

  66. Hey Phil,

    Thanks for your thoughts. I’m tossing up between the Scarlet and the F3 at the moment. And I’m interested in your thoughts on how the low-light and dynamic range of your F3 and Epic compare?

    Cheers

  67. Scarlet : Video seems to be very good for sure but what about sound …
    Video is video AND sound no ? You just make clips or Cinema productions ? Not me.

    – 2 mini jack … Great 😀
    – Phantom ? What for ?
    – Where do you put your Wireless System(s) / Shotgun mic ? Where you can.

  68. This sensor crop thing on the scarlet. I wonder what the consequences are. So HDR on 2k 1080p sounds great but what kind of cropfactor are we talking about then? So like 1.5x at 4k s35 will that be like 3x at 1080p or am I reading this wrong? I would use HDR for wide shots indoors where you can prevent windows from blowing out. Wide lenses and big cropfactors are not big friends. So nice HDR but cropfactor limits possibilities.
    The higher framerates are only used when you have limited disk space or you need slowmo. Again 60 or even 120fps nice but the cropfactor can spoil things again. No more fisheye skate movies.
    For me this really spoils a lot for me. Marketing these superb features but effectively cripple them down in usability.

  69. Let me down gently why don’t you I have not been so excited by the possibility of a new product in a long while, were we finally going to have the perfect tool for the job ……… alas no Canon have in my opinion missed a ground breaking game changing opportunity to produce a (well within their capability!) truly great camera.

    Unfortunately what we have is another so so also ran which unfortunately for Canon isn’t destined to turn over great business as it’s not too much different from the pack and is outrageously expensive for what it is and does. A half baked product that sadly will soon be forgotten in the rush for world dominance by Panasonic and Sony. Are we being taken for mugs by the big three, yet again my small change remains firmly in my pocket and will continue to hire until the next ground breaking announcement, don,t hold your breath.

    The answer my friends for me is still out there probably sitting on a Sony or Panasonic store room shelf in Tokyo !

  70. The C300 is pretty much the camera I was hoping for, especially the codec and feature set. I want as simple of a set up as possible. The new Canon log looks interesting and the fact that it records in camera is a huge deal as well as the viewfinder being corrected for focusing is also a great thing. I do think the price point is a bit shocking but I’m thinking of this as more of a rental piece of equipment vs a purchase. The difference with this camera and say the AF100 or F3 is that I may only need the camera, not a complete package.

    But what I’m most excited about is all the new glass that was announced. I have not seen any suggested prices on them but I’m thinking they have to be a lot cheaper than Zeiss. fast and made for shooting video.

    Phillip, as always your post is well balanced and informative.

  71. So why didn’t canon ask you to do a short? Is your material only good enough to impress your legion of pedestrian fanboys?

    I’m sure you could have done a kick-ass time lapse. Oh wait … You’ve already done 4 or 5 hundred of those.

    Do you ever feel that you kind of ride Laforet’s coattails and that you were the first to exploit social media faster because Laforet is a working photographer and couldnt possibly have the free time you do?

    1. Hi Mark!

      Vince did a great job as did the other guys. Very impressive.

      Oh, if you get a chance do go see my new film “how to start a revolution” that just won best documentary at Raindance! Unfortunately i didn’t get any of my time lapses into it. Oh well. next time! But super happy you think they are kick arse as I just do them for fun!

      Anyway better tootle off despite having loads of free time as you suggest which is odd as I seem to be at it 24/7. Weird that! 🙂

      Take care

      P

  72. I just saw Mobius, Vincent Laforet’s short film in a proper 1080P full screen version. The short is really nice ! And the image quality is stunning. If the camera was under 10K, C300 would be AMAZING… But 20K ? Seriously ? Very expansive me thinks.

  73. FOR THOSE WHO LOVE THE RED’S. READ THIS CAREFULLY!!!!
    http://magazine.creativecow.net/article/the-truth-about-2k-4k-the-future-of-pixels

    So who is still following the hype, the marketing blah blah. I know, I have been on that side of the business for a couple of years. Sales pele are just there to get their targets nom more no less, they will sell you their ugly grandmother if they get a chance. They now your weakness. So do not beleivewhat they are telling you.

    It is as always not about technology it is about you, your creativity your ideas. If you are not able to tell a story in motion pictures with you iPhone 4 you should not be in this business. As my father (a photographer) told me 45 years ago when I asked him to buy me a Pentax SLR, he said try a Kodak Brownie first then we will see if you are ready for an SLR oter wise no way.

    Most stories of what I read in the fora come from people that are not ready for this. You will not be a better DOP when you shoot muli K res.

    I personally think having seen some good examples and read the specs Canon has done a very good job and off course there is always room for improvement and it will definitely work.

  74. im happy both tools are available for us an yes the price sucks for some of these and if you think about it bout will cost WAY more then sticker price once you add in accessories. I think it is clear there are quite a few fan boys. There hasn’t been any Scarlet footage but people already assume its the best camera in the world.

    I read some of these comments and I am happy at 24 I can say I grew up and im not being such a spoiled sport. These cameras won’t make your story any better. Most are arguing over specs right now. To call out others on their entitled opinion is just stupid. And even going as far as to insult Philip just makes me wonder why you even signed up on this site. He isn’t charging you to be here and he has done a lot more for this industry then most ever will.

    If you like the C300, go for it, if you like the Scarlet by all means go for that. Im going to keep using my DSLR’s in the meantime but I think we all should be grateful to be filmmakers (pro or not) and have all this available to us.

  75. i got a question nobody asked before

    scarlet 5k sensor but 12 fps
    so 4k is the “working-resolution” with 24/25fps etc
    but at 4k sensor is windowed soo technically its no s35 camera?

  76. Phil,
    Once again you are a voice of sanity in this gear-lust feeding frenzy. For years I’ve enjoyed your reasoned and fair opinion on these things, and these days it strikes me as more necessary than ever. For this, I THANK YOU!

  77. I do not know if what I say is true, but you P.B. should be thinking “Why did I spend 58k on a machine if I could have spent 14k and have” almost “the same thing?” Probably the sensor is the same, they had an early sensor 2″3 and in less than a year they put a sensor equal to the Epic, and the appearance of the camera is almost the same. Is it really worth to buy Epic?

      1. Probably the framerates, the rest of the image produced is the same. Of course the other options cost money and increase the price. If the Skarlet only record up to 3K, had no HDR or RAW, maybe the difference would be epic. Can only hope for the 5DMk3 4k 🙂

    1. I don’t know if it was mentionned here (I’m lazy I know) but the official words about why the Fixed 2/3″ 3K Scarlet was cancelled are :

      – Fatal problems with the lens (it coundn’ keep focus while zooming)

      – 2/3″ at 3K was a good idea in 2008 but now the market as changed and S35 sensor for 4K might be a better choice.

      My 2 cents are that Red had to make the 11/3 announcement without a camera ready to go to production so they made a Scarlet which is a downgraded Epic or an upgraded Red One MX (take it the way you want) as quick as they could. PLUS, I really think they had hints about the c300 being “only” a 1080P camera. (that plus all the stuff about Arri spying on Red -and others- I think Jannard wanted to blow them with a camera that does compete easily with the Alexa for a “ridiculous” fraction of the price)

      Anyway to me, unless I win at Euromillion and then buy an Epic or a Scarlet (depending on how much I want all the “plus” of the Epic) and a Red Rocket equipped computer… I’m pretty stuck where I was : new DSLR ? AF101 ? FS-100 ? Time were simpler when I bought my beloved Canon XM2 😀

  78. Haha…the look of the C300 reminds me of my old 16mm Beaulieu from the ’70s!

    But, really, 8bits in a $20k camera…I’ll stay with my GH2 hacked to 200mbps thanks.

  79. Oh how we yearn for the perfect camera.
    -full frame sensor
    -In cam 4:4:4 switchable codecs to ALL codecs including RAW
    -Record to 2 codecs at the same time
    -1-120 fps
    -1080, 2K, and 4K switchable res with NO cropping.
    -13 stops
    -CF, SD, & solid state memory slots.
    -4Ibs body
    -$11,000 (selling price)

    LOL!!!!!

    1. I think in this day and age we have the technology to do that at even lower price point!!

      As I understand we have 5Dmrk2 Sensor(500$), if we can get the date out of this sensor to ARM chips(35$) like you find in phones this days.
      This chip is has better computing power than all this marketed stuff like “DIGIC processors” put 8 chips in your camera, better use Tesla CPUS(1000$) for a good measure,
      store your data on a high speed SSD(400$) you can get 4k RAW at 120FPS easily,
      through in Iphone touch screen(60$) with couple of XLR inputs(100$), I bit we can get this camera below 4,000$

      Its computing power to cost ratio , it come to that in the end!
      sorry for my English, I hope my point was clear?

    2. Thank you! Precisely! Why won’t they listen to us? One of these manufacturers could give us this right now. But then we could all stop buying cameras for a while….. oh, wait, THAT’S why they don’t give it to us yet!

  80. Here’s some news for you guys. The Red scarlet is not a real 4K camera. It’s a 4k after bayer filtering. A 14 million pixel sensor camera that create 36 million out of that interpolation. And thats what the bayer filtering does. In order to get RGB out of a Bayer pattern you need two lines. Because you only have green plus one color (red) on one line, and green plus the other color (blue) on the other line. You then have to interpolate the colors that are missing from surrounding pixels. In other words red are just amazing 2K cameras. Same thing with the c300. Its a 4K bayer fiter camera, that output amazing 2k. Im sure it would be possible for the c300 to output 4k, the problem could be disk space, because of all the extra data that occur in the interpolation. Look up wikipedia on bayer interpolation. Im not trying to bash any of these 2 cameras. Both are amazing. And if i could, i would buy both of them.

  81. Some people are kind of bummed about there not being a 5d mark iii/7d mark ii release, but really I’m still stoked on the fact that I, a poor part time employed student can afford a 5d mark ii and create (what I like to think are) amazing results. As for this new camera it is amazing. Mobius looked fantastic, however if someone shot this exact footage on a 5d I’m not sure if it would look considerably different. I think what lends footage to looking great are the lenses, the motion, lighting and editing. So people don’t get bogged down by there not being a new 5diii or 7dii. It wouldn’t magically make you a better film maker. I think advertising to some degree has us constantly chasing something new and “better”.

  82. Thanks for your honesty as always Mr. Bloom! That’s why I read your website, keep it up. I ordered the Scarlet too, with the knowledge that if I get it early in the release, most likely I’ll have to deal with bugs and failures. I go with eyes wide open (and a FS100 as a backup camera).

    As for all of the Scarlet lovers thinking that the new Scarlet is heaven sent technology, consider this. It’s just another camera.

    For 999 out of 1000 of you, the difference between the C300 and Scarlet in terms of visual quality won’t make a bit of difference. If you’re talented/skilled and have the resources to back that up, both cameras will make your work look great. If you lack talent and skill and production resources, both cameras will make your work look awful.

    TRON was shot in 1080P. Contagion was shot in 4.5K with the Red MX. Which one looked better to you??

  83. He Philip!

    here’s my 2 cents;

    If you would combine the Convergent Design Gemini (or Nanoflash) with the Scarlett, you would be able to use the 4k full sensor without having to deal with so much post-production processing trouble. And it would also fix the reliability issues you said you had with the Epic with beta software..

    of course, you wouldn’t have the full resolution in post, but it would essentially be cheaper than the C300 and also shoot at 1080p.

    1. Hi Tom that would make no sense for these reasons.

      External recorders can only record 24,25,30p.

      No RAW

      No 4k

      The Canon craps on the Scarlet in low light. So you get zero of the benefits of having the Scarlet. All you get is a MUCH heavier, clunkier version of the Canon. Albeit it a bit cheaper…you will need to spend more money to make the Scarlet a working tool, yes you are not buying media, but batteries, EVF etc…cost a lot!

  84. I dont mind the 20k for a camera – were a production house so really its no biggie – thats about a price for one job and less than a ENG lens. But im not happy about lack of over cranking at full 1080 – we need it in todays competitive environment as do many others in the industry. So i think this was a very big mistake by Canon. We looked at the F3 and decided to wait for this. But know im really scratching my head.

  85. Hi Philip and Tom.

    Not true at all. Cinedeck and Gemini can do 1080p60 DualLink or 3G.
    No RAW, yes true but thats what Tom meant by saying “without having to deal with so much post-production processing trouble”. For some people a big plus to do fast post biy just using 422 uncompressed stream. No 4K yes but thats the point Tom was saying. U can do normal 1080p by using whole 4k Sensor and thats a big plus too because u dont have Crop Factor by windowing the sensor.

  86. he Philip!

    what if you stick a Convergent Design Gemini (or Nanoflash) on the Scarlett. Then you don’t have to worry about the 4k being a hassle in post (and use the full sensor)
    This would also fix the reliability issues no?

    Of course you wouldn’t have the full resolution in post, but it would make the camera comparable to the 1080p of the C300..

  87. Hi Philip,

    Given that 2k and 1k are just window crops of the sensor, does it look likely that the Scarlet will work with external recorders (such as the Pix240 or the Samurai) recording 1080P Pro Pres off the full field of view?

    I haven’t had the chance to read through all of the posts, so apologies if this has already been addressed.

  88. I think what RED has released is beyond incredible. I was expecting it to be around the 20k mark. But for 10k you get something that no other camera can do.
    As always..people get caught up on 2k/3k/4k/5k. So it can do 5k at 25fps, you really gotta ask yourself, so what! feature films come to cinemas on hardrives at 2k and that looks fine to me. What you should be interested in is the fact it can shoot 3k with HDR and shoots RAW and has the same ‘Latitude’ as an EPIC.

    Its really a breakthrough camera and completly overwhelms what the c300 is doing. I also think it will prove to be more stable than what people think due to its price point, and even if it wasnt RED will make sure it will be eventually.

    Everyone saying they dont need to leave behind the gh2/5d etc, etc are missing the point. I think shooting on 5d is great, but I am going to love my scarlet.

  89. I found this interesting. I am shooting with a GH2, hacked, 176 Mb… GOP3ZILLA hack patch, and… it looks like 35 mm film! Seriously! haha, save my $15,000 for a later date.

  90. How exciting Canon!, yeah! 1080P!!!! Wow, such innovation, I’ll buy 20 of them at only 20K. Good one Canon, for listening to what we all wanted, a 5D Mark 2.5 for 10 times the price!

    Scarlet sounds great at half the price twice the quality but you can’t buy one!!!! Correction, you can buy one but you can’t have it just yet. Yes I know RED are very reliable when it comes to releasing new products on time.

    So back to the drawing board with my trusted 5D/7D.

  91. Both cameras are both great and disappointing.
    Canon fails on price point and lack of resolution, 4K but not really.
    Scarlett fails on crop factor or angle of view and if Epic is having troubles what’s going to happen when they product is built out of the country.

    Philip I’m having trouble with your purchase after the jams you’ve been put in with the Epic.

    I was ready to lay money down but not now.

    Scarlett seems right but no footage or proven reliability, I’ll wait

  92. I have been really wanting canon to step up and actually make big strides with there technology but all they did was take existing technology and re package it. Yes the 4 k 422 recording is nice but i say this with little amazement. Its not that I don’t like 4k its that we haven’t fixed the major flaws with these cameras and that is rolling shutter issues and some of the other major recording issues. Honestly I think the industry just needs to prefect 1920 x 1080 P right now and make sure we can actually record images frame by frame not “progressive” I mean one image at a time. also canon has proved they can produce an HD camera that can compete with 16mm film for under 2 k. That is why people are raving not because of some stupid 4 k 10 mill $ camera. Its nice to have 4 k but lets talk about putting that 4 k in the hands of talented starving artest as meny of us are. Its like canon and all these other camera manufactures just don’t get it. Filmmakers just want to be free from all the expensive hookups movie making comes with. The funny thing is with ALL the crap out on the web of what we filmmakers and photographers ask for in the DSLR camera canon never had any intentions of listening to any of our requests as if they don’t wanna sell a single camera. DSLRs are a fine camera to shoot motion picture films on we just needed to fix some of the glaring issues. But noo!! we have no barring to there decisions. sony tried to listen but they messed it up bad. I just don’t get it about these camera makers we tell them very specific problems and they ignore everything. even magic lantern got totally ignored. I bet a million $ that if canon knew that the DSLRs where going to be as big as they are today they would have never built them. Instead they would have built the stupid C300 and left DSLRs from having any kind of video what so ever. The only camera manufacture that actually listened and really took every thing to heart is Red as far as the DSLR revolution is concerned. Thank god for them or we would have been stuck in the dark ages.

    as far as the scarlet the only problem here is I would have loved if they simplified the camera even more and only stuck with the bear bones. for example just let it shoot only at 2k and 1920X1080 and 25P, 24P, 23.98P, 29.97p, 30P and 60P. If that would bring down the price of the camera to 2k -5k I would have been trying to scrape by to get the darn thing. I think Red just needs to really reevaluate there price point and really tailor it to us prosumers not the pro budgets. beyond that I really do love the new red and in all honesty my hopes where very low for the scarlet. the selling point for me was the use of the canon ef lenses. that really made my day.

    as far as the future is concerned, after seeing canon release the c300 I predict that canon has no intention on fixing the DSLRs glaring problems for a long time. that is until some one actually steps up and takes the chalenge.

    It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out what the film community needs and there are plenty of pros such as bloom and the developers at magic lantern who would love to help develop the new canon lineups but I think all of them really messed up and fell asleep on this one. I mean its not like us pros are asking for money to develop these cameras.

    1. i agree on the 2k barebonecamera from red: 2 k with redraw and maybe 120 fps and a canonmount for 5 k (or even 10k) would have bin possible and a real big bang (i doubt they could have build enough cameras for the demand).

      but i guess, they had to work with that sensor and couldn´t develope another one at the time…

      2 things to complement: the c300 doesn´t deliver 4k-video. it is actualy what you ask for – a full hd evolutionstep, but not as far as you wish (on paper – as far as one can tell).

      and the dslrs glaring problems are based on the fact, that a dslr is a photocamera with a photosensor. the sensor has to much pixels and videos need to be scaled down, resulting in moire and alising. rollingshutter is not such a big problem for stills (at least not big enough to legit a higher price for a globalshutter… but it could be a step that makes sense to offer… as i always say: the videofunction will make the cameras better for stills). so the dslrs will have that problems till the megapixelcount of the sensor equals the videoresolution (but megapixelcounts usualy rise and 4k is to much for a sidefeature).

  93. As always Philip; a brilliant post. Totally appreciate the fact that you keep it real and tell it just as it is.
    All I think Canon needs is another “picture/price ‘accidental’ 5D MKII type, crowd-endearing camera”. Seems they flunk when they think too hard!

  94. I personally really loved the C300 footage; think it looks fantastically Cinematic and very crisp. Also, I saw 0 white balance issues. You’re all looking at footage that was color corrected.

    I’m curious about the Scarlet; say I chose to shoot at 2k or 1k, can I still shoot at 24p/30p?

    How much work IS truly involved in post-processing and do they have their Red Rockets for PC’s?

  95. Hi Philip,
    First of all i really like your work and thanks for sharing all your thoughts, i really trust them 😉
    Would love to know how bad would 1k at 120fps look like… i am specialized in action sports and slow motion for me is fundamental, what camera does good slowmotion over 60fps in HD mode for a good price? What would you recommend?

    Cheers!
    Forest

  96. Can’t wait till some killer reviews float about on these products. Would never buy anything without seeing it first. The C300 will come down to 18 grand. Maybe less. A couple lenses with the change and then straight into a NLE. God knows what the added costs of the red system will be – they would have at least been affordable on the 2/3 system for DSLR users. Not anymore. I’m left looking at the Ikonoskop or the C300. By the time the Scarlet actually hits the streets and the C300 is out there may be more news, maybe more announcements. It’s a good time to hold your breath, i think.

  97. One thing I’m wondering about that no one has seen to mention, (Phil you may know the answer to this) the footage from the Mobius film was transferred to film, that’s right to film! It was projected as film at the Canon opening through an actual cinema film projector. Although a little deceptive on Canon’s behalf, that’s all well and fine as it was used as a cinema camera, but is the footage we are viewing on VIMEO the film transferred footage or the direct digital file form the edit master.

    I personally felt the image quality looked awesome, sure you can always pick it but as an overall filmic look it really had it, much better than a standard RED (can’t comment on EPIC) , better than anything I’ve seen, but was it film or video?

    Also the RED is apparently a marketing hype that it’s true 4K, it’s actually 2K, and perhaps if you blow up the Canon image to 4K it outperforms the RED as the RED is interpolated. A lot of tests have to be done. I’m half sold on the Canon, but the price is such a big let down. But was it video or film, that I need to know.

    1. The RED Scarlet, as all Red cameras, outputs at the sensor native résolution BEFORE the Bayer pattern. So, with its 4K (well, 5K but only on stills) sensor, after all the process of the Bayer filters, you have an excellent and real 2K image. The “magic” at Red is that they created digital algorithms that blow the image up to 4K so the OUTPUT file (the .R3D raw file) is 4K resolution. That’s the theory. Now, as their engineers claims, they managed with their softwares (in camera I suppose) to preserve 87% of the real measured resolution after the Bayer filter, so the blow up to 4K isn’t that big of an “issue”.

      Canon (and Arri with the Alexa) on the other hand, didn’t choose to output 4K to give the user the real measured resolution after the Bayer Pattern (I saw différents information regarding the color filter on the sensor. Some say it is a Bayer Pattern some others that Canon uses something else… Maybe an RGB Triad like the Sony F35…. Dont’ know). It is a good solution for showing images that are gorgeous (Mobius has some really gorgeous pictures !) and to save costs in R&D OR on the camera price tag.

      Two différent marketing strategy. Two good cameras that make gorgeous images.

      PS : remember that 1920x1080p is a 2K resolution with a 1.78 aspect ratio.

      PS2 : we have to also remember that A LOT of other cameras that output 1080P DON’T have a true 1080P measured resolution after the sensor filter processing (and sometime the actuel sensor does not like some Panasonic cameras that have a 1440×1080 sensor that expand the data to get 1920×1080)

  98. Canon C300 … if it is giving 8 bit output over HD SDI port, i would say its premature and not utilising the full potential of a fantastic 4K sensor… The sensor on paper appears to be the best sensor in in its category, with full RGB info for all the 1080X1920 pixels … perhaps canon is saving 10 bit or raw 444 for their next higher end model ( I am not referring to C DSLR) which will put them at par with Alexa and of course at higher cost … but its really frustrating and irritating not to have 10 bit over HD SDI port ..

    By the way Philip I understand it can’t be upgraded to 444 as it is single link HD SDI … but is it possible for canon to upgrade the camera from 8 bit to 10 bit over HD SDI port through a firmware update ….

    If it is possible then we should demand for it …. as in my view only this upgrade will make the camera the best in its category …

  99. My brother’s just come off working on a proper film, which has an IMDB entry and actors that you’ll have heard of.

    The film was shot using a RED camera, though I don’t know which model, and they had a number of problems. In particular the camera had a tendency to overheat, at which point the rather noisy fans would kick in. The on-set solution was to drape it in ice packs.

    Last night he told me that he’d get the Canon over the Scarlet. Which fits with Boyd’s comment above about wanting something that just works.

  100. Cheers Phil for that, was really hoping for more of a mid range camera to work with my 7D and 60D.

    Hopefully they will get where the market is and see the potential. Got some great ef lenses but want to use them on a deticated ef mount camera.

    Pete

  101. Lets just wait for SONY F4 which will arrive for NAB2012 🙂
    It will have it ALL.
    Japanese are good in one thing-they really know how to cripple their product so they can produce another one next month.It is always 2 steps forward and 1 step back.I refuse to pay $20,000 for camera without EVF, 50P and 10bit SDI.
    WHY ARE THEY GIVING US 4K SENSOR IF THEY DO NOT TAKE FULL POTENTIAL OF IT??

        1. I think the sensor in the F3 is not a 2K sensor but a 4K one too.
          The F3 was marketed as a stripped down version (more or less) of the F35.
          In the process of “stripping down” they changed the CCD sensor by a CMOS Sensor, and adopted the Bayer Pattern filter (F35 has an RGB Triad/triplet filter).
          I don’t think Sony has put “only” 2K in the sensor.

          I might be wrong but I think it is a 4K one like the C300.

  102. Releasing a camera at that price point was pretty disappointing to me. I feel like they are going after the wrong market. How many more cameras would they sell if canon just came out with what most of my colleagues wanted, an FS100 comprable Canon camera that took EF lenses. With the images I get out of my 5D I can’t justify spending $20K on a camera. Not these days.

  103. I love it, we were all hoping for the “canon” fs100….myself included.

    Quote from a canon rep days before the announcement –

    “this announcement will make anyone who went out and bought an fs100 feel silly”

    AHEM! I guess they meant feel silly because they are so giddy for not waiting around for the canon!

    I’m sure it’s a great camera, but 4k sensor or not….if you can’t offer at least 1080 60p from a 1080p output camera……well you wont get my 20,000.

    At least with the scarlet you totally pimp it out for 20,000. And you have 4K raw!

  104. Love the idea behind the Red Scarlet, however, as you mentioned I am concerned about reliability. The Epic has been plagued with several issues: No playback (honestly who releases a camera without playback?), Strange flicker/strobing at should be safe shutter angles, and then no pro audio inputs. Better yet, LEMO connectors that are different than the R1. Strange they did that. It would have also been nice to see Red stick to a lower price point that they had originally announced. Remember the whole 3k for $3k slogan? Shortly after the price jumped to around $5k then its finally released at around $10k. Still cheap for what it does, but also expensive.

    Just my 2 cents. The 300c looks promising but the image quality from the clips i’ve seen has been blah- looks like a DSLR and noise is still evident. Maybe this is due to the fact that its outputting 1080p?

  105. Spot on Phillip our brief review on our blog echoes some of your thoughts. It’s great to see someone such as yourself with ZERO bias and really saying it like it is when reviewing products from manufacturers that you have worked so closely with! And by the way we are all awaiting the day you decide to do standup comedy…we’ll be there with the right tool to get it on film, er uh compact flash!
    Oh yeah I ordered a Scarlet (MiniMEpic too!)
    Cheers!

  106. Nice cameras!! I think RED made a smart move. My actual camera is an iPod touch so I’m gonna stick to it, till i get the some money :).

    Here is a short film i shot on my iPod touch, i was amazed by the results:
    here is the link: http://vimeo.com/31632891
    shop you can check it!

  107. Darn it I know I’m falling for all this camera porn I just cannot help my self I’m too weak. I’m desperate to upgrade and buy a camera of my own tired of carrying the heavy broadcast beasts tired of trying to make the 5D work. I’m slowly falling for this new kid on the block despite it’s deficiencies (which might be sorted with a few down load tweaks!) could it be that possibly it reminds me of a much loved camera from my college days the Canon Scoopic http://scoopicguy.com/ScoopicInfo.html

    It was a dam fine camera perfect balance, lightweight, great fun …….. I just wonder when can I get my hands on the new Canon it just might swing it for me.

    Also it would be nice to see some real life shooting not the footage (Mr Bloom?) all we have seen so far is footage with plenty of fetchers carriers pullers and pushers helping the poor old pampered DP’s create genius !!!! In the real world we are lucky to get a sound recordist these days leave alone sparks grips or camera assistant.

  108. Honestly, I’m ok with all the specs on the C300. If I had to pick something to b***h about it would be the selling price which we spec to be around 15-16k. DSLR’s have spoiled us. Now, we always want to feel like we’re getting way more for our money. Sometimes as creators, we get caught up in specs and forget that most consumers who watch our work don’t have any idea what that stuff means. All they know is if its clear and makes them feel a certain way. Much of that is not done by specs. We should still be able to make good & bad movies & shorts with this cam. Spec wise it’s still better than a dslr. The price is just not as universally affordable as the dslrs.

    1. The difference between the cameras is more in the workflow then the specs. If you compare the specs of an Alexa to an Epic, Epic wins, but they is the Alexa such a hot camera?

      Same will be turn for the Scarlet and the C300, either will be a great camera for different reasons. Whether or not they are worth the price for a lot of users that is another questions. When Stu M at prolost is impressed with the image quality of the C300, I’m not going to trash the camera. I’m not going to run out and buy it but I want to see it and use it for sure. This camera will run for about $300/day or $900 a week (most likely) and I don’t have to learn a new workflow if I don’t want to. The run and gun of the C300 will probably beat the scarlet, to a lot of people that will be a reason to go against the spec.

  109. Philip,
    I use a Sigma 8-16mm 4.5-5.6 lens on my 7D because it seems to be the widest FOV zoom I could find for a 1.6x sensor camera.
    Okay, it’s not the sharpest but it is very wide and already paid for.
    In your reply to Justin you said that the Scarlet’s S35 sensor has slightly wider FOV than the 7D. So does that perhaps mean that when I mount the Sigma on my Scarlet it won’t vignette and will give me a similar FOV as I see on my 7D?
    The Sigma has a wider FOV than the Canon equivalent lens on a 7D, I believe.
    And if I crank up the frame rate will the sensor start cropping into the center of my wide angle lens?
    So would I start getting less super wide FOV as the frame rate increases along with reduced resolution?
    I’m wondering also if RED will in the future offer some new software of cranking up the Scarlet to 120fps+ with 4k resolution. That’s something I was waiting for and would gladly pay extra in the future if they would offer an upgrade.

  110. This article is spot on. There is a tonne of half arsed reviews with snippets of information out there. This a simple but great round up of what is going on. As always it is horses for courses: as a mainly documentary cameraman I am far more interested in the Sony F3, and to an extent the Canon c300, than the RED Scarlet.

  111. I look at the images that are being produced from Epic, even the latest from Sir Bloom and they are beautiful.
    I am certain that we all understand the Epic problems with Red products they are very well documented. So yes the Epic and soon to be Scarlet will be problematic.
    And I for one do NOT like problems!

    But then you see Red being used for the Hobbit and you see so many films using Red or Epic and you know that they have alot of Techs working to keep Epic and directors happy. Or if there is a problem they buy a new one supplied happily by Red.

    There can never be too many Peters working with Epic on small projects like the Hobbit. To prove the much loved images coming out of the Epic.

    So are the images worth the hassles to the smaller gents like us?

    Bloom, is still using the Epic despite all the issues and creating wonderful work. Perhaps he is adjusting his workflow and modifying his methods to suit the temperamental beast?

    I think the question is, are you willing to deal with issues for the image quality you get.

    I was staring down the C300 footage compared to Epic, to decide.
    Wow, the Epic is really a breathing image to me, very organic and in your face. C300 seems good but still doesnt make me go WtH?

    Still the conditions of viewing are very weary of compression etc.

    I may by both, one as a hobby, the other when it must be done right, as if theres a time when it doesn’t need to be?

    Ok ignore everything i just posted.

  112. C300, 4:2:2 8bit internal recording, 4:2:2 10 bit out via HD-SDI? possibly only 8 bit out?

    I think this is the last tidbit i’m trying to find about the Canon and may be the qualifying spec to make my choice over.
    I want 4:2:2 10bit min.

    Of course LaForet used external recording but I have yet to see any information about the bit rate of external recording, even on the spec sheet he posted from Canon.

    Anyone Know?

    1. i had a long talk with a canon rep at the mega-digital summit (or whatever it’s called) in manhattan beach (outside of los angeles) a few days back and he admitted that the camera is 8bit out of the chip, then is upres’d to 10bit before the HD-SDI-out. so… basically 8bit, though possibly a little better. the comparison chart now has the camera listed as 8bit.

  113. Excellent blog and opinion as always. Reading through the comments was quite interesting, plenty of people assuming that online compression doesn’t do much. Odd.

    We’re seriously considering a Red Scarlet to go alongside our 7D and others. Always good to have a number of quality cameras in case one dies (which we hope the Scarlet won’t, but looking at the issues you’ve had and just common sense in general to take a backup). In any case, after firmware and sensor updates we reckons with the Scarlet we’ll be well and truly future proofed for the next however many years until clients start asking for 8K 3D or something haha…

    1. I own a 7D, just finished a feature film with it, now bought a RED Scarlet as the C300 makes no sense at all. Not to mention being already obsolete as Canon are releasing a cheaper and better 4K DSLR. Very strange marketing strategy, I feel sorry for anyone forking out 20K under those circumstances.

      1. it’s not as simple as that Joel. The Scarlet looks great but has many many flaws. The C300 looks great but that price….The 4K DSLR…it’s a concept camera. It’s not real.

        Do you need 4k? Most don’t. it’s a hindrance not a help for the majority and the Scarlet in a full working configuration with media for the day and no lenses is going to be a WELL over $20k!!

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